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IF IT AIN'T BROKE -> FIX IT TILL IT IS! GJ CCP
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odysseus4hire
The Squirrel Academy
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#1 - 2017-05-16 19:01:27 UTC
OK, the skill requirement to properly fly a Carrier @ Mastery 5 (the important skills at least) is substantial as is the time it takes to reach that threshold. All things being equal...why would you make changes that affects them in such a way that they're no longer viable versus smaller ships (at least for PVE)?

After the first adjustment, T2 Fighters were still relatively safe even with webs on as long as you kept them moving @ all times and the damage they took was manageable between waves.

After the last tweak, T2 fighters will get 2-3 shot by frigate NPC's unless you're carefully managing they're speed relative to the damage they're taking. That's a 13mil loss per fighter...essentially rendering it useless for running certain anoms.

The reason I'm irritated is that they make these adjustments without considering the amount of time invested for a player to reach proper proficiency in that hull class before making a change impacting effectiveness for jobs certain people like using them for...that's shortsighted and extremely rude to your player-base.

Carrier-ratting is still viable for Hubs -> Ports -> Haven's, but only of the NON- "Forlorn/Forsaken/Rally Point" variety (that contain higher numbers of small ship spawns). When you live in an active area of null sec like I do; you make it a point to avoid high level Haven's or Sanctum's when it's busy to prevent someone landing on grid with you while in warp. I also do it because Forlorn/Forsaken anoms have a higher number of BSHIP spawns and are harder for smaller ships to handle by themselves, thus giving me a safe place to be and reduce some of the competition for Haven's for my alliance-mates to have-at.

I already can't use the damn thing for deadspace PVE, now I'm restricted to specific sites to avoid a mis-click or a lag spike popping one or two of my fighters and zeroing out any profit I might've made.



You have people running Alpha clones on dozens of virtualized desktop clients to circumvent the system that prevents you from using more than one at any given time killing Jump Freighters in High-Sec @ 7.5BIL a pop with frigates, and you're spending time your time dicking with one of the few things I enjoy doing in this game. After 10 years of playing EvE this is probably the 4th or 5th time a change you've made has negatively impacted just what I enjoy doing (let alone everyone else)...and frankly effing I'm sick of it.

If it's OP and needs nerfed that's understandable, but JC leave the things that aren't the hell alone. You can score a billion isk running 8/10's \ 10/10's with a 500MIL Tengu in an hour or two that travels immune to interdiction, or a sleeper relic site with a similarly fit Astero and you're worried about me making 30mil a tick that's 1/4th of the amount of isk with same amount of time and 5x the ISK/SKILL Investment with a HELL OF A LOT more risk involved.

Srsly, what's with you guys?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2 - 2017-05-16 19:45:35 UTC
odysseus4hire wrote:
OK, the skill requirement to properly fly a Carrier @ Mastery 5 (the important skills at least) is substantial as is the time it takes to reach that threshold. All things being equal...why would you make changes that affects them in such a way that they're no longer viable versus smaller ships (at least for PVE)?

After the first adjustment, T2 Fighters were still relatively safe even with webs on as long as you kept them moving @ all times and the damage they took was manageable between waves.

After the last tweak, T2 fighters will get 2-3 shot by frigate NPC's unless you're carefully managing they're speed relative to the damage they're taking. That's a 13mil loss per fighter...essentially rendering it useless for running certain anoms.

The reason I'm irritated is that they make these adjustments without considering the amount of time invested for a player to reach proper proficiency in that hull class before making a change impacting effectiveness for jobs certain people like using them for...that's shortsighted and extremely rude to your player-base.

Carrier-ratting is still viable for Hubs -> Ports -> Haven's, but only of the NON- "Forlorn/Forsaken/Rally Point" variety (that contain higher numbers of small ship spawns). When you live in an active area of null sec like I do; you make it a point to avoid high level Haven's or Sanctum's when it's busy to prevent someone landing on grid with you while in warp. I also do it because Forlorn/Forsaken anoms have a higher number of BSHIP spawns and are harder for smaller ships to handle by themselves, thus giving me a safe place to be and reduce some of the competition for Haven's for my alliance-mates to have-at.

I already can't use the damn thing for deadspace PVE, now I'm restricted to specific sites to avoid a mis-click or a lag spike popping one or two of my fighters and zeroing out any profit I might've made.



You have people running Alpha clones on dozens of virtualized desktop clients to circumvent the system that prevents you from using more than one at any given time killing Jump Freighters in High-Sec @ 7.5BIL a pop with frigates, and you're spending time your time dicking with one of the few things I enjoy doing in this game. After 10 years of playing EvE this is probably the 4th or 5th time a change you've made has negatively impacted just what I enjoy doing (let alone everyone else)...and frankly effing I'm sick of it.

If it's OP and needs nerfed that's understandable, but JC leave the things that aren't the hell alone. You can score a billion isk running 8/10's \ 10/10's with a 500MIL Tengu in an hour or two that travels immune to interdiction, or a sleeper relic site with a similarly fit Astero and you're worried about me making 30mil a tick that's 1/4th of the amount of isk with same amount of time and 5x the ISK/SKILL Investment with a HELL OF A LOT more risk involved.

Srsly, what's with you guys?


That is a lot of complaining, I thought I was in General Discussion for a while there.

CCP did not and has never promised anyone an "all in one" ratting ship. It's dumb to do small ship heavy anomalies in Carriers, you should be using a Sub-cap (Rattlesnake, Gila, Ishtar, Machariel, Vindicator/nightmare in speific space, Navy Vexor, smartbombing BS sets ups etc) for that.

And no CCP should not be changing fighters to survive better in lower tier anoms because if they did so those same fighters would be over powered again against small ships in PVP.

A Carrier is a "medium to big ship killer" in both PVP and PVE, wanting it to be a solopwnmobile money maker is unreasonable.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#3 - 2017-05-16 21:59:49 UTC
New AI and presumably pve content remake is in the works, eta winter 2047.

I hope "real" capital anoms will make it into the game. Leave hubs for subcaps, a haven or sanctum should be something where I can take a dread and duke it out with capital spawns.

Omen Navy Issue Tutorial
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2017-05-17 05:58:12 UTC
odysseus4hire wrote:

If it's OP and needs nerfed that's understandable, but JC leave the things that aren't the hell alone. You can score a billion isk running 8/10's \ 10/10's with a 500MIL Tengu in an hour or two that travels immune to interdiction, or a sleeper relic site with a similarly fit Astero and you're worried about me making 30mil a tick that's 1/4th of the amount of isk with same amount of time and 5x the ISK/SKILL Investment with a HELL OF A LOT more risk involved.

Srsly, what's with you guys?


30m ticks is a low end expectation for carrier ratting. I don't think its representative of a good carrier ratting strategy.

When sampled over lots of nullsec deds, historically I've found only a couple that beat the simple rule of thumb that on average the loot drop is equivalent to the value of the overseers box. Mostly just the gurista ded 6, which isn't that common (which is why its so valuable), and most of us, ultimately don't live in gurista space, and even then, that loot table has lost 30% of its value in the last 3 years from when I farmed it.

A serpentis ded 7 I'd value at 50m bounties (can't remember the number off hand but its always more or less the same) + 60m box + 60m loot, typically comprised of a reasonable drop every 3rd run (170m for 80 minutes). I'd expect ultimately to spend 40 minutes finding a ded in null - they aren't 40 minutes away, but you are likely to be delayed part scanning wormholes, relics, datas and name scanning unrateds, and since they are public encounters, you have to be more careful than merely monitoring for probes.

ie my final expectation of the activity would be 100m per hour, based on finding the 7, 8 or 10 in serpentis space (8 and 10 a little more valuable on average), and that the days where I find a ded 7 after a search, will not usually be my most profitable.

There isn't any reason why carrier pilots deserve more than people running public signatures imo, but in practice they probably do earn more, and your risk assessment is probably out of whack. Both activities entail risk that is largely mitigated by detail in the pilots practices.
guigui lechat
the no fock given
#5 - 2017-05-17 08:01:28 UTC
I think ccp changed the avg income/investment time because carriers became cheapper.

So yeah, now you have to be more active and more aware.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#6 - 2017-05-19 06:21:33 UTC
Carriers are the pinnacle of Anom Ratting, if you use them in the sites that they are suited for you can make more than any other ship. You put down the isk and the SP and you got the best ISK/H.

That being said it does not means its the best ship for everything, just as using a BS for C1s (WH space) is a bad idea, or in my case using unbonused heavy drones in 5-6/10s (switched to Mediums).


odysseus4hire wrote:


If it's OP and needs nerfed that's understandable, but JC leave the things that aren't the hell alone. You can score a billion isk running 8/10's \ 10/10's with a 500MIL Tengu in an hour or two that travels immune to interdiction, or a sleeper relic site with a similarly fit Astero and you're worried about me making 30mil a tick that's 1/4th of the amount of isk with same amount of time and 5x the ISK/SKILL Investment with a HELL OF A LOT more risk involved.

Srsly, what's with you guys?


Anoms are a constant source of isk, you cant compare the max drop of a DED to anom Ratting. Sure some (Not all by any means) DEDs can drop over a bil but the the chance that they will is very low (Sansha 6/10 seems to be maybe 1/10) so the average is much lower. Also DED don't respawn is the same system as Anom do, you have to look for them. Sometimes you scan 1 system and get lucky, other times you scan 50 and find none. Some days you scan for a couple of hours and make well over a bil, other days you scan for 4-5 hours and make a 40-50mil, it all averages out.

Also if DED/relics are so good why not change? I personally think that they are more fun since there is a lot more variety so if the Isk is so much better I cant really see a reason not to switch.

As a side note, you don't need mastery 5, the vast number of skills required for it are pointless. (or at least not very useful, Shield buffer on a Armour ship ect)
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#7 - 2017-05-23 10:17:36 UTC
your carrier is at risk for exactly the time it takes you to warp to a site and align out, so once you arrive on grid you can stay aligned to a safe the whole time, this safe can even be in a POS (though that might get bubbled after they see you go there a few times). So, if you are ratting and paying attention there is incredibly low risk.

Also if you are making 30m isk ticks in a capital you are probably doing something wrong.