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Tactical Shield Manipulation - who does this benefit?
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Amanda Creire-Geng
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-01-16 14:01:40 UTC
Skill description states that it "Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5.".

For armor tankers, this seems counterproductive: you WANT the damage to bleed through to armor so that you can start repairing earlier, while you still have some EHP from the shield.

For shield tankers, the lower your shield gets once it goes below 33%, the weaker its recharge rate, so some damage bleeding into armor is better than getting your remaining shields alpha'd.

Now, assuming I don't plan to use any of the shield hardeners the skill unlocks, is there any situation where it'd be beneficial to have this skill trained, or is it effectively a skillpoint trap?
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2017-01-16 16:27:34 UTC
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote:
Skill description states that it "Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5.".

For armor tankers, this seems counterproductive: you WANT the damage to bleed through to armor so that you can start repairing earlier, while you still have some EHP from the shield.

For shield tankers, the lower your shield gets once it goes below 33%, the weaker its recharge rate, so some damage bleeding into armor is better than getting your remaining shields alpha'd.

Now, assuming I don't plan to use any of the shield hardeners the skill unlocks, is there any situation where it'd be beneficial to have this skill trained, or is it effectively a skillpoint trap?



Once upon a time you needed this to V for capital boosters, which is when I trained it. Now I believe that was dropped to level III so there's that
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2017-01-16 20:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Alexi Stokov wrote:
Once upon a time you needed this to V for capital boosters, which is when I trained it. Now I believe that was dropped to level III so there's that

It is now a prerequisite for Invulnerability Core Operation.

Tactical Shield Manipulation affects Shield Uniformity attribute (there is also armor uniformity, but no skill affects it).

For most users, training to level 4 to use T2 active hardeners is sufficient. If you never shield tank, then you can ignore the skill.

As you are unlikely to survive below 25% shield (or even 5% at level 4), and the bleed to armor is a small random rate, the skill isn't very useful in most situations.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#4 - 2017-01-17 03:38:40 UTC
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote:
Skill description states that it "Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5.".

For armor tankers, this seems counterproductive: you WANT the damage to bleed through to armor so that you can start repairing earlier, while you still have some EHP from the shield.

For shield tankers, the lower your shield gets once it goes below 33%, the weaker its recharge rate, so some damage bleeding into armor is better than getting your remaining shields alpha'd.

Now, assuming I don't plan to use any of the shield hardeners the skill unlocks, is there any situation where it'd be beneficial to have this skill trained, or is it effectively a skillpoint trap?


I'd pick apart a couple of your statements. Or change them to my way of thinking if possible.

1. For Armor tankers, bleed through will hit a higher resist factor, effectively doing less damage. I'm not sure that you would "WANT" to start repairing sooner. Cap is life for an active armor tank. To me, the goal is to make THE OTHER GUY start repairing earlier.
I'd add, if your shield is being broken, the bleed through point probably doesn't matter.

2. For shield tankers, recharge rate is very important to PASSIVE fits. But to an active fit, not so much. Especially down at that last 10% where your shield is about to be broken through.
The math I always think about:
If you have 90% resists in shield, and you take a hit for 1000, you only take 100 damage to your shield.
But if it bleeds through to a 40% resist in armor, then you suddenly have a -600 armor HP left.
Now think about taking 5 of those shots in a row. It adds up to -500 shield, or -3000 armor.
And again, down at that last 5% of shield, you are past your prime regen rate any way, and your tank is being broken.
If you fly an active shield tank and live on the edge of it, you want the skill at V.

3. If you don't ever use shield tanks, ever, I can't think of a good reason to train the skill.

There have been many threads and discussions over the years about this.
Guys have done tests with passive Rattlesnakes and other special fits.
But for the average fight, and fit, probly doesn't make much difference.
Chance of bleed through and all that, it's almost impossible to do a real math formula for.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#5 - 2017-01-17 14:49:44 UTC
Remember that fights are won or lost at the margin. It isn't how much tank you have that matters - it's how much you have left when the fight is over!

That's the mindset you need when considering the marginal utility of a tanking skill, module or implant. This will be a personal calculation - depending on your priorities. Tactical shield manipulation level 4 is useful for just about everyone - including industrial players. Well worth the 2-3 days needed to train it. Level 5 is niche - if you need it you'll know, otherwise don't bother.
Amanda Creire-Geng
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2017-01-17 15:19:23 UTC
Thanks everyone for the answers!
Velarra
#7 - 2017-01-20 00:03:55 UTC
How many threads is this skill responsible for? :)
Chelian Dendrotoxin
Mamaroneck Trading Company
#8 - 2017-01-20 20:11:15 UTC
Velarra wrote:
How many threads is this skill responsible for? :)



All of the threads that aren't complaing about JDC.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#9 - 2017-03-10 14:23:03 UTC
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote:


For shield tankers, the lower your shield gets once it goes below 33%, the weaker its recharge rate, so some damage bleeding into armor is better than getting your remaining shields alpha'd.


25% is peak for shield and cap not 33


BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Skelee VI
Appetite 4 Destruction
#10 - 2017-04-25 16:21:04 UTC
A lot easier, get a friend in a falcon! No worries about tanking!
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2017-04-25 18:18:46 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote:


For shield tankers, the lower your shield gets once it goes below 33%, the weaker its recharge rate, so some damage bleeding into armor is better than getting your remaining shields alpha'd.


25% is peak for shield and cap not 33




This. Obligatory link to curve.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#12 - 2017-05-05 12:59:56 UTC
tl;dr:

*if you will never even fit a t2 shield invuln, don't bother injecting...
*if you will ever passive/regen shield tank, L4 for t2 invulns/active hardeners is fine...
*if you will ever need it as a pre-req and/or care more about active shield tanking than passive, then L5 is okay.

... I'm keeping mine at L4 for the foreseeable future on all 3 of my mains. I have friends who've trained it to L5 just so they could max out their shield category. heh. I'll probably be maxing out my targeting category first, so I'll worry about that later.

Zhilia Mann wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote:


For shield tankers, the lower your shield gets once it goes below 33%, the weaker its recharge rate, so some damage bleeding into armor is better than getting your remaining shields alpha'd.


25% is peak for shield and cap not 33




This. Obligatory link to curve.


Interesting... good to know. I'd always been told it was 29/30 for both cap and shield.

Shield lower than cap. roger.
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#13 - 2017-05-16 16:14:31 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote:


For shield tankers, the lower your shield gets once it goes below 33%, the weaker its recharge rate, so some damage bleeding into armor is better than getting your remaining shields alpha'd.


25% is peak for shield and cap not 33


https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Shields

Quote:
The increase in shield recharge rate continues until it peaks at 25% shield capacity.

Quote:
The peak recharge Rate is 250% of average shield recharge.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#14 - 2017-05-30 08:50:15 UTC
Tippia explained this a while ago, and I don't think anything has changed since then.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2387926#post2387926

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon