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Please Remove 100% Target Jams From the Game.
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Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2017-05-12 05:36:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
Not much wrong with ECM in my opinion. Just my 2c.. Pirate

Been predominantly a solo hunter so far and while ECM makes the guy on one end feel bad, it works generally well in my experience.

And this is why there is a problem with ECM.
Fights should be enjoyed by both parties, not just the winner. It's certainly not the only mechanic in EVE that doesn't promote engagement & enjoyment on both sides, but anyone pretending that sitting there watching a timer tick down before you are allowed to interact with the game is a good idea..... Yeah, you are delusional.


My experience is that in solo / small gang fighting, half of the participants will get anger level up to "complaining on local" as soon as they start losing, and out of the half that don't complain, I'm betting half of those complain on friendly comms about it.

How they lose really doesn't matter.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#102 - 2017-05-12 09:53:41 UTC
Also remove kiting ships, neuts and tracking disruptors from the game. I want to shoot something!
But I can't!
Buee!

~Trump.

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Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2017-05-12 11:05:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
HOW TO FIX ECM

First off:

1) Remove RNG.

Now that that's done, the following is off the top of my head, but it's probably a step in the right direction, at least when compared to what we have:

2) Make it like tracking disruption in that at optimal range, it's 100% effective, at falloff, 50%, etc. Let's call this %EFF.

3) Every cycle has a cool down. So it would be JAM - COOL - JAM - COOL ... Let's call the percentage of time a cycle is in 'jam' vs 'cool' %JAM.

So the final formula would be:

TIME TARGET IS JAMMED PER CYCLE = %EFF x %JAM
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#104 - 2017-05-12 13:54:49 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
HOW TO FIX ECM

First off:

1) Remove RNG.

Now that that's done, the following is off the top of my head, but it's probably a step in the right direction, at least when compared to what we have:

2) Make it like tracking disruption in that at optimal range, it's 100% effective, at falloff, 50%, etc. Let's call this %EFF.

3) Every cycle has a cool down. So it would be JAM - COOL - JAM - COOL ... Let's call the percentage of time a cycle is in 'jam' vs 'cool' %JAM.

So the final formula would be:

TIME TARGET IS JAMMED PER CYCLE = %EFF x %JAM


Let's tackle these in reverse order.

3) You do realize that due to things I already specifically mentioned to you, i.e. stripping any and all forms of tank (hell, ECM rigs have shield capacity drawbacks) and lack of meaningful dps or utility on ECM boats, a jam cooldown cycle would be more of a "YES PLEASE SHOOT ME IM DEFENSELESS" sign...

2) They already have falloff. I assure you that even the universally-hated falcon isn't jamming so much as a cormorant at over 80km. I tested that.

1) So now you want jams to hit every time? Wouldn't that be a bit too powerful?
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2017-05-12 15:52:24 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:


3) You do realize that due to things I already specifically mentioned to you, i.e. stripping any and all forms of tank (hell, ECM rigs have shield capacity drawbacks) and lack of meaningful dps or utility on ECM boats, a jam cooldown cycle would be more of a "YES PLEASE SHOOT ME IM DEFENSELESS" sign...


The jam cooldown is so that perma-jamming is impossible. And the guy wearing a 'shoot me i'm defenseless' sign is the guy who is perma-jammed, not the guy who flies around perma-jamming people and therefore who can't even be shot at.

Quote:

2) They already have falloff. I assure you that even the universally-hated falcon isn't jamming so much as a cormorant at over 80km. I tested that.


The point was to move from an RNG-based 'all or nothing' proposition to some kind of smooth curve-based proposition. If they currently have falloff, the mechanics are completely different than what I'm proposing.

Quote:
1) So now you want jams to hit every time? Wouldn't that be a bit too powerful?


It certainly would be without the cooldown and effectiveness modifiers.
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#106 - 2017-05-12 16:02:17 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:

The jam cooldown is so that perma-jamming is impossible. And the guy wearing a 'shoot me i'm defenseless' sign is the guy who is perma-jammed, not the guy who flies around perma-jamming people and therefore who can't even be shot at.

You do realize there are usually multiple people on-grid and that you cannot jam everyone? Further, you do realize that optimizing the game around small gang pvp would be a complete and unmitigated disaster?

Beast of Revelations wrote:

The point was to move from an RNG-based 'all or nothing' proposition to some kind of smooth curve-based proposition. If they currently have falloff, the mechanics are completely different than what I'm proposing.


The falloff simply reduces jam chance. ECM is an all-or-nothing mechanic, it cannot work part-way. There are no instances of you losing 73.5% of your locks...
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#107 - 2017-05-12 16:20:01 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:

Further, you do realize that optimizing the game around small gang pvp would be a complete and unmitigated disaster?

Optimizing it around large gang PvP is also a complete and unmitigated disaster.

My proposition is neutral to both styles of play, and works the same way in each case.

Quote:

The falloff simply reduces jam chance.


Under my proposition, the falloff would reduce jam time. Is this so terrible?

Quote:

ECM is an all-or-nothing mechanic, it cannot work part-way. There are no instances of you losing 73.5% of your locks...


Currently, the proposition is binary. You are jammed, or you are not jammed. It is also RNG-based, which is a dumb, stupid, asinine mechanic.

Under my proposition, you are always jammed some percent of a cycle. But you are also NOT jammed some percent of a cycle.
Time jammed vs unjammed per cycle would depend on distance (optimal, falloff, etc), and depend on cooldown.
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#108 - 2017-05-12 16:48:49 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:

Currently, the proposition is binary. You are jammed, or you are not jammed. It is also RNG-based, which is a dumb, stupid, asinine mechanic.

Under my proposition, you are always jammed some percent of a cycle. But you are also NOT jammed some percent of a cycle.
Time jammed vs unjammed per cycle would depend on distance (optimal, falloff, etc), and depend on cooldown.


So, what you're saying is that giving me a "iwin-lol-ecksdee" card that I wave at the HIC pointing my titan and get away scot-free will be more fair and balanced than the current mechanics? Well... okay...
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2017-05-12 16:57:13 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:


Currently, the proposition is binary. You are jammed, or you are not jammed. It is also RNG-based, which is a dumb, stupid, asinine mechanic.

Under my proposition, you are always jammed some percent of a cycle. But you are also NOT jammed some percent of a cycle.
Time jammed vs unjammed per cycle would depend on distance (optimal, falloff, etc), and depend on cooldown.


You have to reestablish locks after a jam, and then also certain ships will deal with the time available far more effectively. ie its an extremely favourable mechanic for ishtars and vexors to be even more powerful against jams, but its particularly unfavorable to turret battleships that probably can't lock anything with part of a jam cycle.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#110 - 2017-05-12 17:20:34 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:


So, what you're saying is that giving me a "iwin-lol-ecksdee" card that I wave at the HIC pointing my titan and get away scot-free will be more fair and balanced than the current mechanics? Well... okay...


Sorry... I don't follow ???
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#111 - 2017-05-12 17:55:29 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Marika Sunji wrote:


So, what you're saying is that giving me a "iwin-lol-ecksdee" card that I wave at the HIC pointing my titan and get away scot-free will be more fair and balanced than the current mechanics? Well... okay...


Sorry... I don't follow ???


If ECM always lands, even for a second, which, under your idea, it does, then an aligned titan has to use its ecm just once to get the hic to drop the infinipoint and for the titan to enter warp and be invulnerable (since it can cloak on a safe or jump to safety).
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#112 - 2017-05-12 18:48:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Algathas
Marika Sunji wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Marika Sunji wrote:


So, what you're saying is that giving me a "iwin-lol-ecksdee" card that I wave at the HIC pointing my titan and get away scot-free will be more fair and balanced than the current mechanics? Well... okay...


Sorry... I don't follow ???


If ECM always lands, even for a second, which, under your idea, it does, then an aligned titan has to use its ecm just once to get the hic to drop the infinipoint and for the titan to enter warp and be invulnerable (since it can cloak on a safe or jump to safety).


In addition, if it always lands and the "cooldown" period is less than the lock time of a large target ship, or the target is also damped, then in effect they are perma jammed much easier than the current scenario. On top of that, someone could use multiple jams and stagger them such that during the cooldown of one jam, the other is activated.

That would make large ships effectively useless against any fleet that has one small ship with a jam vs the current scenario where larger ships are harder to jam.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#113 - 2017-05-12 19:18:07 UTC
So there is this game called chess and the people I play keep beating me because they use this thing that looks kind of like a horse and it moves funny and confuses me! These need to be removed from the game because I am too busy to learn how to do this chess thing!! Stupid game!!
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#114 - 2017-05-12 19:41:39 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:

If ECM always lands, even for a second, which, under your idea, it does, then an aligned titan has to use its ecm just once to get the hic to drop the infinipoint and for the titan to enter warp and be invulnerable (since it can cloak on a safe or jump to safety).


So you think having this controlled by RNG is a superior mechanic? How is my proposal worse?
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2017-05-12 20:02:30 UTC
Algathas wrote:

In addition, if it always lands and the "cooldown" period is less than the lock time of a large target ship, or the target is also damped, then in effect they are perma jammed much easier than the current scenario. On top of that, someone could use multiple jams and stagger them such that during the cooldown of one jam, the other is activated.

That would make large ships effectively useless against any fleet that has one small ship with a jam vs the current scenario where larger ships are harder to jam.


You believe RNG is superior?
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#116 - 2017-05-12 20:10:37 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Algathas wrote:

In addition, if it always lands and the "cooldown" period is less than the lock time of a large target ship, or the target is also damped, then in effect they are perma jammed much easier than the current scenario. On top of that, someone could use multiple jams and stagger them such that during the cooldown of one jam, the other is activated.

That would make large ships effectively useless against any fleet that has one small ship with a jam vs the current scenario where larger ships are harder to jam.


You believe RNG is superior?


Far superior to the garbage you propose.
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#117 - 2017-05-12 20:36:56 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Marika Sunji wrote:

If ECM always lands, even for a second, which, under your idea, it does, then an aligned titan has to use its ecm just once to get the hic to drop the infinipoint and for the titan to enter warp and be invulnerable (since it can cloak on a safe or jump to safety).


So you think having this controlled by RNG is a superior mechanic? How is my proposal worse?


Which part of "point-immune supercaps" sounds like a fair and balanced mechanic? I'm honestly curious on this one.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2017-05-12 20:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
Marika Sunji wrote:

Which part of "point-immune supercaps" sounds like a fair and balanced mechanic? I'm honestly curious on this one.


But if it happens due to RNG that's fine?

I don't think it's a fair and balanced mechanic, and it's good to point out flaws like this which are easily fixable (I could fix the issue you present in two minutes, completely off the top of my head). But either way, the current RNG-based mechanic could cause the same phenomenon, and it's not any better.

I believe two problems need to be fixed:

1) RNG.

2) Perma-jamming (the victim not being able to do anything).
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#119 - 2017-05-12 21:53:34 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0.

Am I right in assuming then that you normally PVP by splitting your guns across multiple targets? An ECM that reduces the number of targets to non-zero values is useless.


Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
there is literally no counter to it.

Option #1: Fit a Sebo and have an ECCM script
Option #2: Fit a Sebo and have an ECCM script
Option #3: Cry in the forums for the rest of us to enjoy

Two of those options are productive for you, one of them is not.

You would have no better luck in your cruiser against an RSD frigate, or a weapon disruption frigate. EWAR is effective when used as a force multiplier.

Interestingly, a Sebo has benefits under any and all circumstances.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#120 - 2017-05-12 22:44:58 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine- pro small gang pvp tip: Bring a Keres with you. In addition to shutting down falcons before they can even lock, it makes enemy logi regret they agreed to fly logi. And lands 100% time.

I don't really understand solo pvp'ers crying about ecm. You go solo, you will die (more often), no matter what kind of ship enemy brings since it will most likely be 1vs3 or 5 or 10. ECM is one of the cheesiest options, but not the worst. Dropping a carrier or bringing a 1500 dps battleship to kill your cruiser is even worse. Yes, you can shoot, but you also get blapped in 3 hits. Neuts can be a pain too. Not only you loose tackle, but also possibly hardeners and damage. And get tickled to death afterwards.

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