Player Features and Ideas Discussion

A T1 Cruiser isn't really comparable to an Assault Frigate.

If you want to do a Frigate roam then that's different from doing a Cruiser roam, and people still do both.

I could go into a lot of things that a Frigate can do that a Cruiser can't but that's really beside the point. Any comparison between what a Frigate can do and a Cruiser can do is just going to get down into the weeds for a game of verbal Calvin Ball. There's no rules, there's no winning, just a never ending parade of more and more specific hypothetical situations until we get far enough off topic that an ISD starts nuking posts.

Frigates and Cruisers aren't in competition for role space in most fleets, small gangs, solo roams, ect. T1 Frigates and AFs are though, and with AFs sitting at ~9m I'm not sure why anyone would ever bring a T1 Frigate as a damage ship ever again.

Far far better IMO to make small buffs to AFs or try to throw them into a different role entirely rather than take a chainsaw to their price point and basically re-create the T3D issue but between AFs and T1 hulls.

Mostly I run from combat, do pure frigate 1vs1 (in FW plexes) or am in fleet ops in a cruiser or combat interceptors.

So, other than novice plexes in FW (which don't allow T2 frigates) I have no idea what the role of T1 frigate damage dealer would be. You are correct that I lack understanding of that. I am not even close to being an expert on the mechanics of PvP... but I do know that I've never seen a fleet doctrine for Assault Frigates or T1 frigates as damage dealers. Interceptors... sure... but that's because of nullification.

I'll be honest... in pretty much every role I've seen in fleets, T1 ships are only used for people who can't fly the T2 equivalent. I've been in fleets with T1 tackle or T1 Ewar or T1 logistics... but only until the pilot could fly T2 versions of the same thing. Shouldn't the same be true for T1 damage dealing frigates? Doesn't the fact that it doesn't actually work that way in reality but instead that people advance to cruisers like the RLML Caracal mean the price point for the assault cruiser is too high? People are going for the 10m isk cruiser instead of the 30m isk assault frigate.... because it's clearly way superior at its role given the price difference (damage dealing against smaller ships).

Everything you describe T1 frigates being good at are things that people use interceptors for now. People use interceptors instead of T1 the majority of the time if they have the skills DESPITE them being in the same price range as AF... because they're better.

The problem with AF is that if you HAVE an interceptor holding down your target... a T1 cruiser is every bit as good as an AF for dealing damage to that target. An alpha (as in clone, not strike) fitted caracal can put out over 300 DPS with rapid lights. A t2 fitted AF is more likely around 200-250 DPS with half the tank even with T2 fittings.

And the cruiser costs less.

The assault frigate is better than a T1 frigate... but it costs more than 60 times as much. It's at best equal to and at worst worse than a T1 damage dealing cruiser even against small targets unless it has to tackle as well as do damage... and it costs 3 times as much as the cruiser. And interceptors cost the same and are far superior tacklers (because that is their job).

Look... it's not worth the price at the moment for pretty much anything. It either needs a buff that turns it into something other than a pure combat frigate... or it needs a reduction in price. It's really not a problem to have T1 ships be suboptimal... because they're T1. It's a problem when T2 ships are suboptimal.

Again, I'm talking about fleet usage here. I use T1 frigates... in FW novice plexes. They're fun and cost little to lose. T1 frigates get used because of that cheapness... and because T2 frigates aren't allowed in those plexes anyway. But the point with interceptors that you proved with the numbers you posted is that they get used more despite costing 50-100 times as much as the T1 frigate. The reason is they are enough better to warrant the usage.

Here's the problem with the AF. Right now if I'm in a fleet and I'm a damage dealer to smaller ships and caring some about cost... I use T1 cruisers... usually a Vexor or Caracal (due to both having easy damage application to smaller enemies). I'm not worried about tackling the opponent... the interceptors do that. Even if I were in a Rupture or Omen or Thorax... I'd rely on my tackler to web the enemy so my medium guns could tear it up much faster than an AF with small guns would. I simply can't see a benefit to using an AF that costs three times as much as the cruiser for the damage dealing role in a fleet.

I'm not sure I can conceive of a scenario where I would chose to use an AF over an Interceptor or T1 cruiser right now. But if you made the AF cost the amount of the T1 cruiser (and thus 1/3rd of an Interceptor)... I probably would use it in certain situations (a tankier but less effective tackler or damage roles when I don't have someone tackling for me). It's not worth it at the current price.

You could add utility and leave the price alone. But it's trickier to get that balance right than just changing the cost to manufacture.

Ships become popular because they are the best option for something that matters. For example, interceptors are the best option for moving fast and avoiding fights that you don't want take, or getting to fights that you do want to take. They can instawarp, go really fast, are nullified etc. When it comes to weapons and tank, they're little better (if at all) than a T1 frigate, but since they're the best at something useful (going fast), they're still extremely useful.

Assault frigates are also the best at something: Mitigating damage. A fleet of assault frigs supported by frig logi is extremely hard to kill. I've flown enough frig logi to know that T3Ds don't hold a candle next to an assault frig's ability to survive. There's only one problem: Simply surviving isn't very useful and AFs do little but survive.

Even if assault frigs were the price of a Vexor, a Vexor is still better because while it can't survive quite as well in most fights, it can dish out a useful amount of DPS and put a useful amount of nuet pressure on something. A Rupture can shoot at a useful range and hit with a useful amount of alpha. A Hyena can web from a useful distance. Even a Maulus can shorten lock ranges to a useful degree.

Unrivaled survivability is a good base on which to build a ship; the question that needs to be answered is now that you've survived, what do you do that isn't already taken by some other specialty? Someone mentioned a fast-cycling MJD. I think that would be good, along with very high natural scan res, so you can jump/tackle very quickly, and swapping the utility high for a mid so you actually have enough slots for an MJD, prop mod and tackle. Maybe you could even give the MJD a tunable jump distances, like 35 for a standard jump and 50 with heat. It would make them great at catching traditional kiters, and give them utility at providing a scram on MWDing targets that have already been pointed by interceptors without being forced to get in a dangerous tail-chase (warp to ceptor, align to enemy ship, jump in front of it, tackle). Maybe a 1-2 second spool time and 20-30 seconds cycle time.

We elected THIS to the CSM? 0.o


I hear the Presidency is taking applications.


Nerf the **** out of T3D's, and add an OH effect(Not module damage reduction or duration) bonus. Job done.