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Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#281 - 2017-05-11 16:38:51 UTC
... and this exchange shows beautifully how the same action can be interpreted in entirely different ways.

Al that is left for us who inherited the world formed by such actions and their interpretations is to gather as much wisdom from this legacy as we possibly can.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#282 - 2017-05-11 16:57:36 UTC
Tarek Raimo wrote:
... and this exchange shows beautifully how the same action can be interpreted in entirely different ways.

Al that is left for us who inherited the world formed by such actions and their interpretations is to gather as much wisdom from this legacy as we possibly can.


True. But ... uh. I hope you'll forgive me for pressing a point.

This conclusion that you've come to, that interpretations differ and all that's left is for succeeding generations to learn what they can: it's one I and probably the Caldari generally can agree with. The Caldari see things their own way. They don't insist that their way of seeing things is right or proper for anyone else. Interpretations differ, and they're fine with that.

... Is this view one that's widespread in the Federation?
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#283 - 2017-05-11 17:50:40 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
None of those, I made the mistake of giving attention to your deflection of the issue, since you have no actual way of twisting the issue to your personal benefit, that is your only recourse.


I have no agenda nor benefit from this issue. I was just interested in understanding what is a valid reason to kill from your perspective.

Arrendis wrote:
You're really overgeneralizing here, you know.

1. Humanity generally agrees that killing other humans is wrong, in the abstract sense. It's an outgrowth of hardwired empathy (except in the case of sociopaths) and self-interest.

2. Humanity also generally agrees that someone might still try to kill you. If someone tries to kill you, or you see someone trying to kill someone else, you should stop them, and it's regrettable, but ok, if you have to kill them to do it.

3. Humans, in aggregate, have agendas that benefit the group.

4. Groups can have agendas that conflict with the agendas of other groups.

5. Most of humanity (again, there are sociopaths and barbarian savages out there) agrees that when conflict arises, these groups should attempt to resolve these conflicts in mutually-beneficial ways. One of the most basic benefits available is 'nobody in my group ends up dead'.

6. Everyone (except again, some specific sects of barbarian savages who may or may not be sociopaths) agrees that nobody is perfect. Everyone screws up sometimes, and unfortunately, those screw-ups don't always happen in isolation.

7. As a result of the combination of (1), (2), (4), (5), and (6), big enough groups tend to maintain sub-sections of the group whose job is to protect the lives of members of the group. These sub-sections also serve as a deterrent against (6) in another group.
7a. It is generally understood that membership in these sub-sections includes a willingness to place (2) and (3) above one's personal self-interest in not dying.

8. (4) + (6) happens. (7) isn't always enough of a deterrent. We call this 'war'.
8a. Sometimes, the (4) that causes (8) isn't even about (6), it's about (2). Because even though (2), there's always those savage barbarian sociopaths.

9. Given (1) and (5), it's generally acknowledged that (8) is a (6), and that in the big picture, nobody really wants it, but that it happens anyway.

10. As a result of the general agreement on (9), (1), and (2), when (8) happens, there are rules that generally intend to limit the loss of life to (7), who accept this risk as indicated in (7a).

So, yes, even when war breaks out, human society overall (barbarian savage sociopaths potentially excepted) generally agrees that there are restrictions on who dies. Military service, like law enforcement, is in many ways a "sin-eater" position: when society screws up, you pay for it.

But you do once again seem to be horribly misusing 'civilized' to mean something like 'polite' or 'peaceful', when that's not really what the word means, it's just connotations people with overly facile misunderstandings of society and human nature have ladled onto it in an attempt to convince themselves 'oh, no, we're much better than that'.

We're not.


That´s kinda the thing. "Believe" but don´t practice. So it´s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it, like every point you made after number 1.

People do what they do, i´m not judging. Just find it interesting to see the mental contortionism that people perform to avoid admiting such a clear thing.



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Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#284 - 2017-05-11 18:30:35 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
The Caldari see things their own way. They don't insist that their way of seeing things is right or proper for anyone else. Interpretations differ, and they're fine with that.

... Is this view one that's widespread in the Federation?


The federation is in its essence a great experiment which has at its foundation the goal to build a multicultural and multi-ethnic society based on a rough consensus. Ideally many different views are widespread in such a society. If your question was meant to ask whether this is the current political mainstream, then the answer is sadly no. Too much political capital can easily be gained by keeping alive the spectre of a unified threat posed by the Caldari.

In reality, most Caldari are literally minding their own business. As an officer active in the border zone, my impression is that the only belligerents are desperate extremists who can at best be considered fringe elements of Caldari society.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#285 - 2017-05-11 19:20:44 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
I have no agenda nor benefit from this issue. I was just interested in understanding what is a valid reason to kill from your perspective.


Well then, all you had to do was ask, not speak in sarcastic riddles.

When talking about a war situation, theoretically any reason is a valid reason to kill. However, atrocities typically beget other atrocities in an escalating rhythm, so in "civilized warfare" intentionally targeting civilian population centers is, mildly put, kind of a **** move and will only work against yourself in the long run. In an effort to not cause a mutual extinction event, sufficiently advanced civilizations should endeavour to have some kind of ethics in warfare, like not intentionally targeting medical personnel, not summarily executing enemies that have surrendered and so on.

If you asked my personal opinion in less broad circumstances, then a valid reason kill is always as a last resort in order to protect someone else or yourself.
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#286 - 2017-05-11 19:30:00 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
I have no agenda nor benefit from this issue. I was just interested in understanding what is a valid reason to kill from your perspective.


Well then, all you had to do was ask, not speak in sarcastic riddles.

When talking about a war situation, theoretically any reason is a valid reason to kill. However, atrocities typically beget other atrocities in an escalating rhythm, so in "civilized warfare" intentionally targeting civilian population centers is, mildly put, kind of a **** move and will only work against yourself in the long run. In an effort to not cause a mutual extinction event, sufficiently advanced civilizations should endeavour to have some kind of ethics in warfare, like not intentionally targeting medical personnel, not summarily executing enemies that have surrendered and so on.

If you asked my personal opinion in less broad circumstances, then a valid reason kill is always as a last resort in order to protect someone else or yourself.


It is an.ancient method of deconstructing a subject in layers to get to the core of a reasoning process. People dont usually like to admit their premises, so its a good process to get to it with an active participation of reason instead of automated responses.

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Arrendis
TK Corp
#287 - 2017-05-11 20:00:26 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
That´s kinda the thing. "Believe" but don´t practice. So it´s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it, like every point you made after number 1.

People do what they do, i´m not judging. Just find it interesting to see the mental contortionism that people perform to avoid admiting such a clear thing.


Out of idle curiosity, which points do you think are rationalizations? You said 'every' point after (1) is a rationalization, so:

Do you think 'killing is bad, but killing to stop someone from killing is less bad' is a rationalization?
Do you think groups of humans don't have aggregate agendas?
Do you think different groups can't have conflicting agendas?
Do you think there is not broad agreement that it's better to resolve conflicts without killing everyone?
Do you think there is not broad agreement that people are imperfect?

How are each of these rationalizations? Additionally: which of those statements do you think people do not practice? (ie: (2) - do you believe people do not, in fact, put the belief that killing in self-defense or the defense of another is less objectionable than killing out of hand, into practice? If you believe they don't, how do you explain the legal availability of 'Self Defense' defenses in criminal prosecution?)

Also, as each of these is a relatively straightforward point, building on the previous points, what 'mental contortions' do you think are in evidence, and what do you think isn't being admitted?

We'll just start with those 5, we can get the other 4 (or 6, if we include 7a and 8a) after.

Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#288 - 2017-05-11 20:06:35 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
That´s kinda the thing. "Believe" but don´t practice. So it´s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it, like every point you made after number 1.

People do what they do, i´m not judging. Just find it interesting to see the mental contortionism that people perform to avoid admiting such a clear thing.


Out of idle curiosity, which points do you think are rationalizations? You said 'every' point after (1) is a rationalization, so:

Do you think 'killing is bad, but killing to stop someone from killing is less bad' is a rationalization?
Do you think groups of humans don't have aggregate agendas?
Do you think different groups can't have conflicting agendas?
Do you think there is not broad agreement that it's better to resolve conflicts without killing everyone?
Do you think there is not broad agreement that people are imperfect?

How are each of these rationalizations? Additionally: which of those statements do you think people do not practice? (ie: (2) - do you believe people do not, in fact, put the belief that killing in self-defense or the defense of another is less objectionable than killing out of hand, into practice? If you believe they don't, how do you explain the legal availability of 'Self Defense' defenses in criminal prosecution?)

Also, as each of these is a relatively straightforward point, building on the previous points, what 'mental contortions' do you think are in evidence, and what do you think isn't being admitted?

We'll just start with those 5, we can get the other 4 (or 6, if we include 7a and 8a) after.



Things are things, i do not see right or wrong, just things and people creating their personal stories and makebelieves to give this dream meaning and context.

Remember: Whatever is, is right. It couldnt be otherwise.

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Arrendis
TK Corp
#289 - 2017-05-11 20:58:00 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Things are things, i do not see right or wrong, just things and people creating their personal stories and makebelieves to give this dream meaning and context.

Remember: Whatever is, is right. It couldnt be otherwise.


I didn't ask about right or wrong.

You claimed every point after (1) was rationalizations. I'm asking you to explain your assertion.
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#290 - 2017-05-11 21:32:40 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Things are things, i do not see right or wrong, just things and people creating their personal stories and makebelieves to give this dream meaning and context.

Remember: Whatever is, is right. It couldnt be otherwise.


I didn't ask about right or wrong.

You claimed every point after (1) was rationalizations. I'm asking you to explain your assertion.


"In sociology, rationalization or rationalisation refers to the replacement of traditions, values, and emotions as motivators for behavior in society with rational, calculated ones. For example, the implementation of bureaucracies in government is a kind of rationalization, as is the construction of high-efficiency living spaces in architecture and urban planning."

You erected a pile of sequential arguments, incrementing them logically step after step to explain a shared set of values that regulate the "permission" of killing and limiting it to a pre-set conditioned scenarios.

You created an artificial context to say "on this case is right, on that case is not" and beautifully put forth a set of rules and chain of events to explain why your beliefs hold.

This, by said definition, is a rationalization.

Nothing against your preffered fairytale however. Is as good as any.

Join Project Transcendence.

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Arrendis
TK Corp
#291 - 2017-05-11 21:57:23 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:

"In sociology, rationalization or rationalisation refers to the replacement of traditions, values, and emotions as motivators for behavior in society with rational, calculated ones. For example, the implementation of bureaucracies in government is a kind of rationalization, as is the construction of high-efficiency living spaces in architecture and urban planning."


This refers to the process of rationalization of belief systems, not to individual statements as rationalizations, which is more commonly "broadly : to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for"

Which, from the context of your earlier statement, is clearly the meaning when you say "So it´s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it,"

Which, incidentally, also contains an implied value judgment inherent in the clause beginning with 'just'.

As with your repeated uses of 'civilization', I'm noticing a distinct trend where you seem to like to use ambiguities in your word choice to try to leave yourself room to make claims later that aren't supported by the initial context.
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#292 - 2017-05-11 22:04:09 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:

"In sociology, rationalization or rationalisation refers to the replacement of traditions, values, and emotions as motivators for behavior in society with rational, calculated ones. For example, the implementation of bureaucracies in government is a kind of rationalization, as is the construction of high-efficiency living spaces in architecture and urban planning."


This refers to the process of rationalization of belief systems, not to individual statements as rationalizations, which is more commonly "broadly : to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for"

Which, from the context of your earlier statement, is clearly the meaning when you say "So it´s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it,"

Which, incidentally, also contains an implied value judgment inherent in the clause beginning with 'just'.

As with your repeated uses of 'civilization', I'm noticing a distinct trend where you seem to like to use ambiguities in your word choice to try to leave yourself room to make claims later that aren't supported by the initial context.


Sure, whatever suits you sassy lady.

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Jev North
Doomheim
#293 - 2017-05-12 07:50:03 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Gallente are far from perfect, but at least they have the tendency to own up to their mistakes, and even try to do better in the future [...]

Would that they succeed at it more often, though.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#294 - 2017-05-12 08:04:46 UTC
Jev North wrote:
Teinyhr wrote:
Gallente are far from perfect, but at least they have the tendency to own up to their mistakes, and even try to do better in the future [...]

Would that they succeed at it more often, though.


They have. And at least try, which is more than most do, who just prefer banging their head on the wall and crying how evil the wall is for not budging.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#295 - 2017-05-12 15:21:55 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Jev North wrote:
Teinyhr wrote:
Gallente are far from perfect, but at least they have the tendency to own up to their mistakes, and even try to do better in the future [...]

Would that they succeed at it more often, though.


They have. And at least try, which is more than most do, who just prefer banging their head on the wall and crying how evil the wall is for not budging.


I feel like one's mileage may vary, here.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#296 - 2017-05-12 15:40:14 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I feel like one's mileage may vary, here.


Certainly you are entitled to feel that way.
I'm just defending everyone's rights to be nationalistic assholes.
Julianus Soter
Blades of Liberty
#297 - 2017-05-15 01:41:22 UTC
New on the Federal Frontier, an article on Proper Government in the Capsuleer Age. Perhaps some here have an interesting take on Capsuleer organization and leadership?

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#298 - 2017-05-15 04:04:39 UTC
Pandemic Legion is probably the only true meritocracy in an alliance or organization of its size. There is some democracy in the construction of doctrines or decisions regarding deployment and some autocracy in settling disputes or enforcing policy.

Overwhelmingly though, those who put in the work and are known to have the skill are given all of the power. It can seem extremely chaotic but our culture and flexibility are without a doubt extremely important to our success. My short explanation does not do the system or culture justice though.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Julianus Soter
Blades of Liberty
#299 - 2017-05-15 04:48:17 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Pandemic Legion is probably the only true meritocracy in an alliance or organization of its size. There is some democracy in the construction of doctrines or decisions regarding deployment and some autocracy in settling disputes or enforcing policy.

Overwhelmingly though, those who put in the work and are known to have the skill are given all of the power. It can seem extremely chaotic but our culture and flexibility are without a doubt extremely important to our success. My short explanation does not do the system or culture justice though.


I would be interested in hearing a more thorough discussion on this at some point, perhaps on your own media venue? Could spur some discussion.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2017-05-15 05:25:18 UTC
You cannot see me laughing but, Julianus, I do not have my own "media venue."

...Do I seem like someone who has a media venue?



You should talk to Grath or someone who has been in PL for a decade if you want something more thorough.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.