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Please Remove 100% Target Jams From the Game.
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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#21 - 2017-05-10 12:59:19 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0. Why even bother to try? This is like the mines that were removed from the game long ago.

So stupid. Video games are supposed to be fun. All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.


#1. It is ALWAYS a mistake to post on a forum emotionally after an in game loss. It's whining and it doesn't help you.

#2. I notice from your kill mail that you didn't have one single Auto-Targeting missile in that Caracal you lost. It's also a mistake to play the game poorly, not use the tools you already have, and then come to the forums to complain.

#3. ECM or not you weren't going to survive against all that stuff anyway.


You aren't alone in your reaction, but that reaction is wrong. This is not to say that criticism of ECM mechanics shouldn't happen, just that it shouldn't happen right after your explode lol. Use what the game gives, learn to beat ECMing ships, and then have a discussion about it.

This is what I wrote in another such "I died, PVP sucks" thread, it might be helpful here.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#22 - 2017-05-10 12:59:43 UTC
Oliver Delorean wrote:
Buggs LeRoach wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0. Why even bother to try? This is like the mines that were removed from the game long ago.

So stupid. Video games are supposed to be fun. All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.


you jump blind into a 30 man gate camp and die and blame ecm ... Roll


Without ecm they all be dead! Twisted

I support the removal of the ecm!
Doesn't matter how fast I die, at last I have a chance to shoot back.


Somebody please brings a tornado here and alpha this guy off thread.
Salt Foambreaker
Greedy Pirates
#23 - 2017-05-10 14:58:56 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0. Why even bother to try? This is like the mines that were removed from the game long ago.

So stupid. Video games are supposed to be fun. All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.


Get friends, don't expect everything to be balanced to solo pilots.
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#24 - 2017-05-10 16:02:44 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.


This has been an endless rant since before I started playing 11 years ago.
One of these days CCP will wise up and add ECCM modules to counter ECM.

/rolleyes

Anything you can do, can be countered.

ECM is only a problem because it's a binary result to a random chance.
When they try to jam you, it works every time. When you try to use jammers, they never work.

If ECM was actually overpowered, everyone would use it.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#25 - 2017-05-10 17:34:46 UTC
VaMei wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.


This has been an endless rant since before I started playing 11 years ago.
One of these days CCP will wise up and add ECCM modules to counter ECM.

/rolleyes

Anything you can do, can be countered.

ECM is only a problem because it's a binary result to a random chance.
When they try to jam you, it works every time. When you try to use jammers, they never work.

If ECM was actually overpowered, everyone would use it.

Everyone does use it
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#26 - 2017-05-10 18:22:07 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0. Why even bother to try? This is like the mines that were removed from the game long ago.

So stupid. Video games are supposed to be fun. All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.


It's worse than what you portray. Think about it as the victim instead of the perpetrator. I lost a Raven to a single lone Jackdaw. I was even fit with light or medium missile launchers, which would have hit him. I NEVER GOT A SINGLE SHOT OFF, NOT EVEN ONE. I was perma-jammed, perma-scrammed, and perma-webbed the entire time.

I wasn't allowed to do ANYTHING except just sit there. Nothing else.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#27 - 2017-05-10 18:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0. Why even bother to try? This is like the mines that were removed from the game long ago.

So stupid. Video games are supposed to be fun. All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.


It's worse than what you portray. Think about it as the victim instead of the perpetrator. I lost a Raven to a single lone Jackdaw. I was even fit with light or medium missile launchers, which would have hit him. I NEVER GOT A SINGLE SHOT OFF, NOT EVEN ONE. I was perma-jammed, perma-scrammed, and perma-webbed the entire time.

I wasn't allowed to do ANYTHING except just sit there. Nothing else.


A Raven. A missile ship.

I was once in that situation, I killed the ship scramming me.

Let me show you how. This was the 1st part.

This was the second part.

Did you know that even when you are jammed, Auto Target missiles work AND if you put drones out then fire auto-target missiles, the drones aggro too....so you can sick drones on the guy scramming you even when jammed!??

For the life of me I don't know why it's easier to complain on the forum than it is to learn the game. Keeping a stack of 5-600 Auto Target missiles on a missile ship is not hard to do at all.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#28 - 2017-05-10 18:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0. Why even bother to try? This is like the mines that were removed from the game long ago.

So stupid. Video games are supposed to be fun. All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.



Where it up to me™ I would take the same mechanics used for bombs and just let ships fire in "dummy mode" meaning all projectiles, beams, and missiles, just fire in the same vector as the direction of the ship.

This would allow players to do more than just sit and wait to die and permajammers better have tackle to keep their target from turning on them.

Plus strafing would be epic in large fights.


For even more lols, let players move their turrets and bays manually.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2017-05-10 18:45:42 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It kills solo and small gang stuff man. The maximum number of targets should never be 0. Why even bother to try? This is like the mines that were removed from the game long ago.

So stupid. Video games are supposed to be fun. All this does it make people want to quit because there is literally no counter to it.



Where it up to me™ I would take the same mechanics used for bombs and just let ships fire in "dummy mode" meaning all projectiles, beams, and missiles, just fire in the same vector as the direction of the ship.

This would allow players to do more than just sit and wait to die and permajammers better have tackle to keep their target from turning on them.

Plus strafing would be epic in large fights.


For even more lols, let players move their turrets and bays manually.

Two problems:
* Server literally can't handle this - EVE isn't coded like that, every projectile could, at best, be a miniature bomb. Also, forget contact fuses.
* TQ would crap itself from the physics calculations required to do that even with relatively few ships.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2017-05-10 18:53:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Did you know that even when you are jammed, Auto Target missiles work AND if you put drones out then fire auto-target missiles, the drones aggro too....so you can sick drones on the guy scramming you even when jammed!??


And if I had been in a non-missile ship?
Fluffy Moe
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2017-05-10 18:59:45 UTC
Personally, I'm a big fan of active gameplay and counterplay and against anything that promotes / incentivies inactive gameplay, botting, perma stuns, perma anything really, anything that eliminates and inhibits counterplay.

And I love ECM, love CC in various MMOs, etc. I just love messing with people. But as stated above, I do not want it at the expanse of completely limiting gameplay. Thats just bad, and I am all for toning down any such game mechanics.

Do not eliminate them, but do bring them in line and balance things out better. Make the anti ECM fits easier and more common for the general playerbase and make ECM itself a bit harder to execute properly.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#32 - 2017-05-10 19:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Did you know that even when you are jammed, Auto Target missiles work AND if you put drones out then fire auto-target missiles, the drones aggro too....so you can sick drones on the guy scramming you even when jammed!??


And if I had been in a non-missile ship?


You weren't in a non-missile ship, but since you asked:

Smartbomb + overheated MWD. point away form guy tackling you, then sling shot back at him, deploy drones, turn on smart bomb for 1 cycle (which will not destroy your drones), aggro from smartbomb on enemy ship will activate drones.

Or just make sure you have an ECCm scripted Sebo and/or give up a low slot for a signal amp.

Or (if a battleship) mount a target lock breaker module (align to something, turn that sucker on and wait for the target lock, spamming warp the whole time).

And if the Ship is important to you, invest in some cheap anti jamming implants like Grails, Talons, Spurs, or Jackals depending on the race of ship you use.

Of course no one actually does any of this because it's easier to complain on a forum about it...
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2017-05-10 19:29:47 UTC
Would not flying a glorious master race drone boat solve this issue?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2017-05-10 19:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
Jenn aSide wrote:

Smartbomb + overheated MWD... then sling shot back at him, deploy drones...


1) As I said, I was perma-scrammed.

2) Even if I wasn't, every ship I fly should equip a smartbomb 'just in case?' What if there's no utility high... just give up a weapon slot?

3) What if I'm not flying a drone boat?

Quote:

Or just make sure you have an ECCm scripted Sebo and/or give up a low slot for a signal amp.

Or (if a battleship) mount a target lock breaker module (align to something, turn that sucker on and wait for the target lock, spamming warp the whole time).

And if the Ship is important to you, invest in some cheap anti jamming implants like Grails, Talons, Spurs, or Jackals depending on the race of ship you use.


So, smartbombs, ECCM-scripted Sebos, signal amps, target lock breakers, implants, blah blah. Which means when you run into a ship that isn't using jams and isn't using all his slots and implants for anti-jams like you are, you're just as dead.

Anything else I'm supposed to equip every time I undock a ship?
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#35 - 2017-05-10 19:31:07 UTC
ECM should break locks and then you can re-lock right away I think that'd be a fair tradeoff.

The 'gameplay' of Eve lol

@lunettelulu7
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#36 - 2017-05-10 19:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Smartbomb + overheated MWD.


1) As I said, I was perma-scrammed.

2) Even if I wasn't, every ship I fly should equip a smartbomb 'just in case?' What if there's no utility high... just give up a weapon slot?

Quote:

Or just make sure you have an ECCm scripted Sebo and/or give up a low slot for a signal amp.

Or (if a battleship) mount a target lock breaker module (align to something, turn that sucker on and wait for the target lock, spamming warp the whole time).

And if the Ship is important to you, invest in some cheap anti jamming implants like Grails, Talons, Spurs, or Jackals depending on the race of ship you use.


So, smartbombs, ECCM-scripted Sebos, signal amps, target lock breakers, implants, blah blah. Which means when you run into a ship that isn't using jams and isn't using all his slots and implants for anti-jams like you are, you're just as dead.

Anything else I'm supposed to equip every time I undock a ship?


Oh I don't know, maybe a MOBILE DEPOT that lets you change fits almost on the fly? You do know what a mobile depot is right?

That's the problem with so many people who play this game, they give up without trying, and then rationalize why they won't try, but they have noooo problem complaining about it.

I don't get it, do you LIKE exploding, or would you rather make others explode if they mess with you?

YOU WERE IN A MISSILE SHIP. 600 FoF missiles take up like no space. Your 1st thing you should have done after that jamming guy killed your raven was think "man, what can I do next time". When you learn to think that way you then find out that not only do you explode less, you feel frustrated less too.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#37 - 2017-05-10 19:44:45 UTC
Oh my... there's loads of popcorn in this fred.

Remove standings and insurance.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2017-05-10 19:48:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Oh I don't know, maybe a MOBILE DEPOT that lets you change fits almost on the fly? You do know what a mobile depot is right?


Are you saying that after I've been attacked, perma-scrammed, perma-webbed, and perma-jammed, that I can just drop a mobile depot, refit for ECCM and smartbombs and whatever else right on the spot, then engage?

Quote:

Your 1st thing you should have done after that jamming guy killed your raven was think "man, what can I do next time". When you learn to think that way you then find out that not only do you explode less, you feel frustrated less too.


No, because with the number of bad mechanics available for opponents to exploit in-game, your "preparing for the next time" just means you prepared for the wrong thing because the next guy does something else.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#39 - 2017-05-10 20:40:04 UTC
Just ignore Jenn on this topic. They love to troll people by listing theoretical counters that in the real world aren't practical for most people to use, but shout loudly about them (I mean really, imagine smart bombs anywhere in high sec when at war, that's just asking to die horribly to concord). The Auto targeting missiles is a good one though and worth listening to.

However back on topic. Yes ECM mechanics suck. It's a pure RNG result where your skill in flying your ship doesn't matter, damps you can close range in theory, TD's you can close range or lower transversal. But ECM you just cross your fingers and pray, and that's the bit that sucks. However no-one has managed to ever come up with a replacement idea that actually works, and is distinct in flavour from TD & Damps. Therefore we have the current form of ECM, which CCP have at least made slightly easier to fit to counter.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#40 - 2017-05-10 21:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Oh I don't know, maybe a MOBILE DEPOT that lets you change fits almost on the fly? You do know what a mobile depot is right?


Are you saying that after I've been attacked, perma-scrammed, perma-webbed, and perma-jammed, that I can just drop a mobile depot, refit for ECCM and smartbombs and whatever else right on the spot, then engage?

Quote:

Your 1st thing you should have done after that jamming guy killed your raven was think "man, what can I do next time". When you learn to think that way you then find out that not only do you explode less, you feel frustrated less too.


No, because with the number of bad mechanics available for opponents to exploit in-game, your "preparing for the next time" just means you prepared for the wrong thing because the next guy does something else.


You were in a missile ship. Stop being pitiful for once, it's not hard to learn how to do things in EVE.