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Battleships and Capitals: Bigger is not better
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Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2017-05-08 13:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Switch Savage
MRietfors wrote:
Well explained thanks all for your contribution!

I wish to add a few things to the discussion:
I never said big ships shall always be able to travel without escort, of course they have to!
At the same time a lone big battleship that would cost 2Bil shall be able to take care of 8-10 T1 cruisers or 4-5 T2 cruisers without too much pain (provided pilots of the same skill level).
Also in no case a ponting frig (even an interceptor) alone, shall be able to last more than 10-20 seconds against such a monster wihtou help.

Why not?
Cause it's no fun! (and also absurd imho).

OK, let's assume BSs shall not be able to fly alone never: in this case you want a very expensive huge DPS platform that also need escort. So i nthis case they shall be able to delivery 10K DPS or so to make sense.


I flown most the BS in the game and still fly them sometime, so I well know how to use them in the current game and I can confirm you they are way too much undersused compared to all other ships in the game ( proportionally speaking of course, based on their isk value).

I also read the above statistic but i't something different: yes BS guns make most damage but you are not going to use them except in their specilized occasions since in all other cases you wont' do damage at all.

Look the thing this way: BS today are no fun, and it is demostrated by the fact that even if they are 1/5th (approx) of the flyable ships, only 1/30th or os of the pilos actually fly them.

Mri


A 2b Marauder will tear a 10 man cruiser gang apart in terms of tank/dps in a straight up brawl. The issue is they are immobile whilst doing so and a gang that size will likely have logi. In such a case the marauder will often stalemate with the gang until it runs out of cap charges and eventually dies. This is just how the game is and does not mean they are bad ships in anyway.

I do not think you fly battleships enough to reliably comment on how good they are in the current meta. Battleships fit and flown correctly are in a fine place in the meta as it stands now. The main issue is their warp speed combined with the abundance and cheap cost of capitals makes dropping a loan BS viable and risk free (1.2b Carrier after insurance is nothing).
Pix Severus
Empty You
#22 - 2017-05-08 14:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pix Severus
This is what a battleship is capable of in EVE.

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Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#23 - 2017-05-08 16:42:41 UTC
Quote:
There aer a lot of posts of ppl trying to optimize Machariel or rattlesnakes to do solo L4 missions faster... this is dumb and absurd when you can do those mission at even greater speed in a proper fitted Ishtar or even a Gila.


I personally rat in rattlesnakes because I think AFK drone boats are dumb as hell, and the fact that I can place 2 sentries makes it feel like I'm still doing most of the damage (its about 50/50 with my fit)

Also, in drone land anomolies a VNI can't touch a properly blinged rattlesnake's tick. Its not lvl 4 missioning, but I imagine null anoms are close enough to lvl 4 missions for the comparison to be valid.

Quote:
At the same time a lone big battleship that would cost 2Bil shall be able to take care of 8-10 T1 cruisers or 4-5 T2 cruisers without too much pain (provided pilots of the same skill level).


Found your problem. The cost of destruction and the cost of building are 2 completely irrelevant things, and balancing around cost is pretty stupid when the players have control over the cost.

If you put a gun in my mouth and pulled the trigger, would you argue that it shouldn't be possible to die from it because the bullet cost $1 instead of whatever my life insurance payout is? This is what your "2b isk battleship" argument sounds like to us. The cost of the BS has nothing to do with its survivability. Whether it lives or dies is based on the skill of the pilot, the fitting, and the base stats of the ship. money is irrelevant.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2017-05-08 18:50:26 UTC
Also, keep in mind "skill of the pilot" has virtually nothing to do with character skill points. Knowing the craft/build's operational profile is the 1st last and hardest part of of playing Eve. "Balancing" out that fact is what you are asking for at the core of your idea.

The short answer is no.
Tanuki Kittybeta
Ripperoni in Pepperoni
#25 - 2017-05-09 04:08:28 UTC
fit ur bs with tiny guns and webs and challenge frigs to 1v1 you at the sun
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#26 - 2017-05-12 01:26:50 UTC
Well I see BS all the time, Machs, Typhoons, Domis are all pretty popular in the LS area I fly in. I personally use a Mach for PVE and PVP (Solo or with my Alt).

Go into HS and every second ship is a BS because they are far superior for PVE.

Also a BS if fit properly can take on almost any smaller ship with few issues (Grapples and heavy nuets are a wonderful thing), however as with most things in eve the blob almost always wins. The few ships that can kill almost any BS solo are the ones that everyone says are OP (Tengus much) .

As for interceptors, thier job is to hold targets, if they could not do that for more than 20 seconds then they would not be used . Even then a flight of lights and a heavy nuet can shut most down pretty quickly.
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-05-13 22:57:01 UTC
hell I wouldn't expect a BB to survive even 5 CL's working together. EWAR is really potent in this game.

And really that is the way it should be, if size mattered all you would see is people running around in the biggest ship possible and it would effectively reduce the variety of ships.

As for cost of ships, yes there is a certain amount balance that goes into cost but it should not be the only consideration; A purple fit stabber should not be able to waste everything under a billion just because its got 2bil in bling on it. cost should only be a determining factor when applied correctly. In this I think the game is actually in a good place. T2/3 cruisers are to be able to beat T1 BB's but they cost more. Furthermore cost should not trump other considerations such as situation, skill, and numbers.

There aren't any real kings of the hill in this game and that's a good thing.
MRietfors
Lumen et Umbra
#28 - 2017-05-16 10:57:05 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
hell I wouldn't expect a BB to survive even 5 CL's working together. EWAR is really potent in this game.

And really that is the way it should be, if size mattered all you would see is people running around in the biggest ship possible and it would effectively reduce the variety of ships.

As for cost of ships, yes there is a certain amount balance that goes into cost but it should not be the only consideration; A purple fit stabber should not be able to waste everything under a billion just because its got 2bil in bling on it. cost should only be a determining factor when applied correctly. In this I think the game is actually in a good place. T2/3 cruisers are to be able to beat T1 BB's but they cost more. Furthermore cost should not trump other considerations such as situation, skill, and numbers.

There aren't any real kings of the hill in this game and that's a good thing.



EVE is about the ratio Isks/power so everything shall be balanced around isks.
I agree nothing should be the king of the game, specific things shall be better done by certain classes of ships etc...
At the same time Size SHOULD matter imho.

IT is NOT ture that BS aer better in PVE, for several reasons, some examples:
- Move around in low/null secs with a BS you'll be a sitting duck
- L4 missions and DEDs can be done almost at the same time with HAC/T3 cruisers
- I have fits of Ishtar / GIla/ Tengu etc... that easily do 1K dps and tank most of the PVE situations anc cost one half of equivalnet BS (if any)

Talking about PVP:
- At present no solo BS (mostly) can escape any serious attempt the gank that and, MOST IMPORTANT, any ganked BS do not cause any real damage to attacker before dying
- In most cases any solo BS can't kill a solo simple tackler before reinforces arrive
....

Only un-eperienced pilots fly BSs in PVE today.
Only large fleet flyes BSs in PVP today
Most of the time the effort and ISK required to get a good BS are not rewarded by a similar level of power or flexibility.

This is not balanced bro.
Mri
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2017-05-16 12:26:59 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
hell I wouldn't expect a BB to survive even 5 CL's working together. EWAR is really potent in this game.

And really that is the way it should be, if size mattered all you would see is people running around in the biggest ship possible and it would effectively reduce the variety of ships.

As for cost of ships, yes there is a certain amount balance that goes into cost but it should not be the only consideration; A purple fit stabber should not be able to waste everything under a billion just because its got 2bil in bling on it. cost should only be a determining factor when applied correctly. In this I think the game is actually in a good place. T2/3 cruisers are to be able to beat T1 BB's but they cost more. Furthermore cost should not trump other considerations such as situation, skill, and numbers.

There aren't any real kings of the hill in this game and that's a good thing.



EVE is about the ratio Isks/power so everything shall be balanced around isks.
I agree nothing should be the king of the game, specific things shall be better done by certain classes of ships etc...
At the same time Size SHOULD matter imho.

IT is NOT ture that BS aer better in PVE, for several reasons, some examples:
- Move around in low/null secs with a BS you'll be a sitting duck
- L4 missions and DEDs can be done almost at the same time with HAC/T3 cruisers
- I have fits of Ishtar / GIla/ Tengu etc... that easily do 1K dps and tank most of the PVE situations anc cost one half of equivalnet BS (if any)

Talking about PVP:
- At present no solo BS (mostly) can escape any serious attempt the gank that and, MOST IMPORTANT, any ganked BS do not cause any real damage to attacker before dying
- In most cases any solo BS can't kill a solo simple tackler before reinforces arrive
....

Only un-eperienced pilots fly BSs in PVE today.
Only large fleet flyes BSs in PVP today
Most of the time the effort and ISK required to get a good BS are not rewarded by a similar level of power or flexibility.

This is not balanced bro.
Mri




You literally have no idea what you are talking about.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#30 - 2017-05-16 16:43:10 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
EVE is about the ratio Isks/power so everything shall be balanced around isks.

No it's not and it should not. By your words, you're proposing pay-to-win model of balance.

EVE, if anything, is of rock-paper-scissors type and for many, me incuded, this is the selling factor.

Quote:
- L4 missions and DEDs can be done almost at the same time with HAC/T3 cruisers

I can't comment on DEDs but for L4 this is simply not true. For long time I have believed in what you stated but in time bounty ticks teached me otherwise.

Also last time I checked battleships were very popular for running Incursions.
Bleedingthrough
#31 - 2017-05-16 21:27:51 UTC
Ships in EvE are designed to have a purpose. And they do have a purpose if people for whatever reasons use them.

I am neither limited by isk nor skillpoints so I can easily buy the “best” ship. I currently own 23 “best” ships in Nalvula and all of them are different ships.

This is the beauty of EvE.
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2017-05-17 02:41:35 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
hell I wouldn't expect a BB to survive even 5 CL's working together. EWAR is really potent in this game.

And really that is the way it should be, if size mattered all you would see is people running around in the biggest ship possible and it would effectively reduce the variety of ships.

As for cost of ships, yes there is a certain amount balance that goes into cost but it should not be the only consideration; A purple fit stabber should not be able to waste everything under a billion just because its got 2bil in bling on it. cost should only be a determining factor when applied correctly. In this I think the game is actually in a good place. T2/3 cruisers are to be able to beat T1 BB's but they cost more. Furthermore cost should not trump other considerations such as situation, skill, and numbers.

There aren't any real kings of the hill in this game and that's a good thing.



EVE is about the ratio Isks/power so everything shall be balanced around isks.
I agree nothing should be the king of the game, specific things shall be better done by certain classes of ships etc...
At the same time Size SHOULD matter imho.

IT is NOT ture that BS aer better in PVE, for several reasons, some examples:
- Move around in low/null secs with a BS you'll be a sitting duck
- L4 missions and DEDs can be done almost at the same time with HAC/T3 cruisers
- I have fits of Ishtar / GIla/ Tengu etc... that easily do 1K dps and tank most of the PVE situations anc cost one half of equivalnet BS (if any)

Talking about PVP:
- At present no solo BS (mostly) can escape any serious attempt the gank that and, MOST IMPORTANT, any ganked BS do not cause any real damage to attacker before dying
- In most cases any solo BS can't kill a solo simple tackler before reinforces arrive
....

Only un-eperienced pilots fly BSs in PVE today.
Only large fleet flyes BSs in PVP today
Most of the time the effort and ISK required to get a good BS are not rewarded by a similar level of power or flexibility.

This is not balanced bro.
Mri




Isk does factor into balance but is not greater than the other factors. No one factor is actually supreme, CCP has done a great job balancing this.

Size actually does matter a lot, there are pro's and con's for both smaller and bigger. It is up to the player to understand how to use this. You're response indicates you don't.

BB's are used a ton in PVE. PVE is also quite varied for some things BB's are better, for some things they are not.

BB's are used in PVP, they can be quite good look them up on YouTube. The reason you don't see them has more to do with SP investment than the ships. Since the SP threshold means there are more small ships out there it means you need to fit your BB to deal with smaller targets.

1k Tengus, Ishtars, and Gila's? Me thinks you are full of ****. I can make a 1010 Dps Gila in Pyfa by Officer modding and sacrificing every other aspect of a ship and by assuming all skills lvl5.
JC Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2017-05-17 05:49:32 UTC
i think you guys are confusing isk with minerals
hulls have a mineral cost relative to their class and size
thats all
guigui lechat
the no fock given
#34 - 2017-05-17 08:35:22 UTC
When you have a hac that makes 1300 DPs, you call me. meanwhile, I'll stick with my mach for L4s.

for guristas ded5, they really are an exception : last time I did some my rattle was metling, I was jammed, had to warp off several times. We were two people and tried one together, but we could not handle the DPS.
Xianax
Wraithlords
#35 - 2017-05-23 05:54:38 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
Punisher Ofara wrote:
This sounds like a single-player game. You climb up the ladder and advance to the "best ship", own everything and "complete" the game. Done.
In a game that needs longevity, a better plan is to make sure that many different things are usable and worthwile, even if you are a veteran player. Helps to keep you interested. If you already had the most powerful, all-consuming mega ship, there would be little incentive to keep playing after it gets boring.
The way it is now, trying out new ships is fun, from all different categories since they all can make a difference. Also, it's great for new players. If you join a PvP corp, you can become a useful contributor fairly soon, without having to train "Battleships 5" and a gazillion other skills for months.



Nah, this is not what I said.
Bigger ships should not be "overall" better, but for sure worthy flying.
Today it's not worthyfly a BS in eve, is this good game design?

Having Big battlship fearsome does not mean those can do everythig, they will have ohter limitations: e.g. cannot enter many mission or DEd sites, are very slow and easy to scan, are very expensive etc....

But you need to feel their greatness when u fly them or, as today, you won't use them, or you use them and get disappointed.

Answer this: is there any expert long time eve player out there that flies a tempest or a rattlesnake (or any other BS for example) on a regular base apart from occasional PVP fleet?

Mri


I blitz level 4 missions pretty effectively in my MWD fit Paladin. Mega Pulse Lasers with scorch on a paladin go out to about 64 KM before adding any tracking computers to them. Also incursions literally have entire fleets of Battleships (with cruiser logi support of course).
Keno Skir
#36 - 2017-05-23 14:58:53 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
Answer this: is there any expert long time eve player out there that flies a tempest or a rattlesnake (or any other BS for example) on a regular base apart from occasional PVP fleet?

Mri


Indeed, i fly a Vindicator a lot often solo. I see where you're coming from but you're generalising a bit. "Battleships" in general are in a strange place, but having said that there are still BS that will eat most other ships. Rattlesnake is flavour of the month atm, though it is well capable of eating frigates all day long.

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Dean Wong
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2017-05-23 17:33:40 UTC
Ok, you won. You made me login and type this message.

I dunno what to really say, but here are a few examples of Battleships been a class of it's own.

1. T1 BS.

Tempest - They form a super-killing doctrine for a reason. They are also very popular for solo and small gang.
Hypérion - Popular station games and bait BS
Dominix - Popular solo / structure bash doctine.
Armageddon - See above
Maelstrom - Alpha doctrine
etc, etc

2. Faction.
Vindicator - power Wardeccers and LS solo PVP machine.
Macherial - L4 mission machine, solo kiting PVP machine, fleet doctrine.
Rattlesnake - solo pawnmachine, fleet machine, powerful L4 machine.
Bhaalgorn - Underuse but powerful enough to threaten a small fleet if fitted correctly
etc etc

3. BLOPs
Very popular and great for solo ganking of PVE machines.

4.
Marauder - Can solo take on a small fleet. Tank with proper skills and stuff in excess of 5K DPS and put out 700 DPS.

Summary.

Yes, BS is use in large fleet.
Only inexperience pilots lose their Battleships.
Plenty of gank BS that can do in excess of 1000 dps and are often flown in nullsec, even in the presences of supers and titans.
As a long-time interceptor pilots, I will never hesitate to tackle your so call "cheap" Ishtar, Tengu or Gila, but will hesitate tackling any experience battleship pliots. Reason, battleships have so many anti-tackle defense that can murder my interceptor which no other ship class have.
guigui lechat
the no fock given
#38 - 2017-05-23 19:10:05 UTC
machs are also useful for bumping freighters in uemada.
MRietfors
Lumen et Umbra
#39 - 2017-05-26 22:11:07 UTC
Dean Wong wrote:
Ok, you won. You made me login and type this message.

I dunno what to really say, but here are a few examples of Battleships been a class of it's own.

1. T1 BS.

Tempest - They form a super-killing doctrine for a reason. They are also very popular for solo and small gang.
Hypérion - Popular station games and bait BS
...
2. Faction.
Vindicator - power Wardeccers and LS solo PVP machine.
Macherial - L4 mission machine, solo kiting PVP machine, fleet doctrine.
...
3. BLOPs
Very popular and great for solo ganking of PVE machines.
....
Yes, BS is use in large fleet.
Only inexperience pilots lose their Battleships.
Plenty of gank BS that can do in excess of 1000 dps and are often flown in nullsec, even in the presences of supers and titans.
As a long-time interceptor pilots, I will never hesitate to tackle your so call "cheap" Ishtar, Tengu or Gila, but will hesitate tackling any experience battleship pliots. Reason, battleships have so many anti-tackle defense that can murder my interceptor which no other ship class have.


OK i see... so you are actually confirming me that:

1- Apart from some specific L4 missions Bss are useless in most of the PVE content (Deds, ratting in low/null, Data/relic sites, WH sites etcc...) and i fully agree, as i said i have several fits of T3 cruisers and HAC that do it better and costs less
2- In PVP BSs are substantially used only in large fleets, some brave and rich experiences pilots fly them solo from time to time, but the reality is that you almost never see BSs jumping around in Low and null sec without escort looking for solo fights (ok, ok, there are some but they are no more than 10% of the cruisers/other ships doing that)
3- All other things: well i dont think any1 use BSs to haul expensive items, to bring materials, to move quickly etc....

So at the end 1/4th of the ships in the game, the very best "in theory" of the subcapitals are only use in minor and specific niches in the game or need escorts or to be in large numbers.

Well, it seems that most of you like this, if you like this you can keep it, I don't like it..
Have fun, Mri
guigui lechat
the no fock given
#40 - 2017-05-27 11:51:52 UTC
You have to stop being an ass

Your opinion is not "the holy truth everybody agrees with".
You don't like BS, we don't care. You say they are useless, you are an ass.

BS are not meant to be better than every other ship. They have better ehp but less agility, better dps but less appliance than many They have more slots but cost more.

basically : you know nothing. And yet you want to spread your ignorance.
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