Player Features and Ideas Discussion

What are you talking about, the OP? Because that is exactly what it is about as he spells out:



Even the OP acknowledges that he is attempting to artificially "even the odds" in an open-world, PvP sandbox game.

That is futile. Eve is not intended to be fair or balanced but an single universe Battle Royale. You can claim someone pointing this out is being trite, but that doesn't change the fact it is absolutely true, whether you like it or not. Even the OP understands this even if he then goes on to propose an idea that completely undermines the whole idea of highsec wars to allow legal fighting between two defined sides.

I think it is time you come to terms that wardecs are not a mistake or oversight but a very much intended mechanism to allow the designed game play of Eve to go on in highsec. I think we share some limited common ground that alternative social systems should exist, but your one-man campaign to straight-out abolish them isn't going anywhere. Any replacement will basically be the same and still allow the strong to prey on the weak, the big on the small and all the other player-driven interactions that arise in our shared sandbox as it has been engineered to work.

I know that isn't going to stop you from continuing, but who I am to tell you how to enjoy your game? Forum wrangling, even of the misguided variety, is content in its own right so keep at it.

We have social corps.
No one said you had to use CCP's corp and alliance mechanic the way CCP intended.

That's the problem most of these threads are complaining about. Some noob makes a new corporation and invites everyone in NPC starter chat. 40 new players join the corporation "cuz it's a guild, lol" and get wardecced by everyone for being an obvious target. Then three or four of them come to the forums to cry that it's not fair.

EvE's hard, man

If you want combined hangers & wallets for corp use, then accept the risks that go with it. If you just want a banner to hang over your names that says you all belong to the same group & a corp chat, then sure, social corps that can't be decced can have that. But as soon as you get game function effects that can't be replicated already by communities, then you should be vulnerable to war decs.
However like I said earlier, give more meaning to a corp in high sec, and the problem will resolve itself. It's not wardecs that are the issue, it's lack of care about corp identity.

Yep, EVE grew every year until they nerfed wardecs and made pvp harder to get into. The reason the game stopped growing was because less players are getting into pvp (the best retainer of any game). Instead they are getting bored and quitting. If only they went back to their roots and stopped making the game safer. It'd turn around in a year.

Why do you think groups are entitled to a corp wallet? Or a hangar? If you have those things then you should be open to wardecs. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

Social corps, when they come, will be just that. No corp assets, no shared wallet. Just a chat channel, a killboard and a mailing list.

I apologise If I was mistaken in believing that you were a wardeccer. Naturally I drew that conclusion from reading all your other posts on the subject.

I also agree that most Corps still existing in HS are badly run, run by new players who haven't a clue, corps to farm kills for their wardeccing buddies, and bait and switch corps, to get people into Rental Nullsec to exploit them.

This is because no well run corp can currently survive, whilst retaining a sane leadership. So they don't.
Hence all that is left is dross.

I also question your assumption that players Join EvE because it is harsh, No one I have met in HS LS Null Or WH space since the beta days, (wormholes since they opened) claims to have.
It is only on the forums anyone claims that.
Admittedly I had a few weeks off here and there so they may have sneaked in when I wasn't watching. or maybe it is only amongst the groups you play with? Hmmmm.

Of course I may have been right all along and you are NOW attempting to be a caring neutral with the best interests of the game at heart. But on balance, It may have been correct to assume you actually are a wardeccer, and want to keep things as they are.

Who knows? Maybe it's your alt that is the Naughty one.

Apologies for not responding in a while (various RL & IG activities takes my time away). I should also note that I am an avid PVPer, whose lived in NS for the past year and a half but I have very strong memories of my early HS days. I was particularly disheartened seeing so many of my HS corpmates quit the game due to the war deccers and have been trying to come up with a solution to increase player retention and desire for PVP being the ultimate goal.




I disagree with your assessment here. Structures may be used as a balance towards putting more risk towards the war-deccer but not the required incentive to balance the current system. To better address the issue, one must ask Why does one live in high-sec vs. Low/0.0/WH? The primary reason? Safety. The risk reward to live in the other regions must be there make it more desirable. You can't increase the value of HS structures to parity without dropping the desire to live in those regions. Doing that would undermine the desire for players to move into the more risky regions which IMO is an undesirable game change.

So based on that premise (whether you agree or not, please discuss) what do we know about most HS populations?
Group A: HS PVPers Mostly greifers & trolls (Merc. Corps / CODE etc.)[
Group B: Risk Averse PVE Players & NewBeans
Group C: Transiting LS/NS/WHers
Group D: Retired players / Traders - Unimportant

The issue is that Group A has a huge advantage over Group B in organization and experience. Group C who occasionally gets wardecced too, are far more interested in their local affairs than to ever bother organizing in HS to get involved.

With the invite system, Group B has the option to be reasonable organized (local standing fleets, intel channels/groups) to help defend against Group A. They can form relationships with Group C and potentially get them to join their more risky regions by creating those relationships.



The N+1 problem becomes a real issue for the attacker (how many friends can he really bring?), but this issue exists in all fights in all areas of PVP already where you never really know what your opponent can bring. It doesn't in HS war dec mechanics. The defender has a fixed number of members who can directly engage and "potentially" neutral logi. This is unfair intel towards the war-deccer and needs to change. You never know if the target is bait in most areas of PVP, so why should war deccers get that advantage of knowing fairly well most of their targets are not bait?

They should have to make a conscious decision on whether or not a target is worth killing before (or if) backup arrives.



The issue, is organizing a bunch of bads (who typically live in HS) together to do something interesting like fight back. I did attempt such a thing, but most people who are already capable of decent PVP live in Low/Null/WH already.

By lowering the bar for PVP (you don't have to be war-decced, you can assist others who need help), to join you, you could potentially introduce PVP to individuals who would normally be super wary of any type of PVP because they might have the illusion of getting on an easy fight (hey its only 1 dude, lets kill him together!), probably in a poorly fit PVE ship. This increases the number of potential easy kills for war-deccers, and the potential to kill the war-deccer depending on the number of locals in the system or friends the person can muster (anti-WarDec channels similar to intel channels etc.).

Presently there is far too little risk for a War-deccer and too much for the defending corp. The balance needs to be adjusted.



Other quick responses:


I'm not expecting most local dudes to actually win against the wardeccers. Rather they will likely DIAF with their poorly fit PVE ships lol. But the point is for them to gain the experience....

Also fleet invite option is only allowed FOR THE DEFENDING corp, not the aggressor. This does still pose some balance issues, but that should be further discussed.

But yes, willingness to fight in any region is a big issue, but lowering this bar to make them realize how fun it could be could totally change that. I've experienced just how many dudes (industry/PVE dudes) by lowering this bar through my local home defense fleets.

If all they're going to do is die then what's the point of your proposal? People in highsec will quickly learn that accepting a war invite is pointless suicide and stop accepting them, and then we're right back to where we are now.



I know, that's why I mentioned making bait corps. The gankers make an obnoxious "carebear" corp that does everything possible to provoke a war, and once you declare war on the bait corp you're suddenly a free target for everyone in the ganking group. And, best of all, you don't even know who your potential killer might be until they join the gank fleet and immediately kill you. Sure, targets that don't take the bait will require a conventional war dec, but I guarantee you that gankers will exploit this system for their own gain.

Real mercs have no assets in space. And if you show up for a fight we usually beat the crap out of you :)