EVE General Discussion

You need many people to make a game.

Exactly, and I think many of you have long since crossed the line from reasonable discussion into mob mentality.

Make a list of your demands, and we will see which side you are on, no?

Hint: Anything that involves things we clearly know CCP will never do in any way, shape, or form, regardless of whether they should or ought to from a subscriber viewpoint but NOT a business viewpoint puts you on the mob side.

CCP are not subscribers, they are producers. They are not obligated to consider your feelings when they make a product, only whether money will leave your wallet when they dangle it in front of you.

Mobs make irrational demands that can obviously not be met.

Things like:

Remove Incarna!
Quit ALL WiS development forever!
Trash WoD and DUST!
Do as I and I alone say because I must know best!
etc.

I think you are being quite dishonest to portray the grand majority of players troubled with CCP's recent business and development decisions in this way. "Mob-mentality?" Should I be refering to you as a puling collaborator or witless quisling? Such language gets in the way of discussion and draws battle-lines - but is that what you are attempting to do?



Who is calling for such really?



Can I ask what your interest is in portraying members of this community in such a negative cash-cow role? I refute your argument with reference to the CSM. If all was as you surmise then what exactly is the CSM for and why was it set up in the first place.



I am not calling for the removal of Incarna and I honestly don't know of anyone who has seriously called for this on these forums. Similarly I don't believe people are calling for the end of all Incarna development forever. Dito for WoD and Dust.

These are obvious strawman statements that reveal you as a dishonest debater and this leaves me wondering if you are simply trolling here or have some other bizarre agenda. Either which way I have to tell you that you aren't really achieving much.

Rouge, it is alright to back off the tone of your rhetoric, I am not going to use it against you if you do or chest beat, I will simply better enjoy having a more rational discussion with you over the topic at hand.

But phrases like silencing discontent and brainwashing are really not very constructive on a video game forum.

And I am sorry, but CCP is a company, not a nursery, they are here to make a profit first, not improve the quality of your life experiences or help you achieve inner peace.

Do they and most of their employees care whether you are having fun or not? Of course they do.
But at the end of the day, they have mouths to feed, whether their own, or others, and I'm sorry, but if I had to choose between your feelings and my dinner, I would choose the latter every time.

You are taking what I mean out of context, so this ends here.

And honestly, I do not really care, I was just curious to see if you could surprise me with something... expansive.

You did not.

Edit: And by the way, I did not say feelings do not matter, nor whether CCP should solely be concerned with selling snake oil and not with whether it works or not, I said that they are here to sell a product, that product is designed to give you all manner of feelings of goodiness, but the product must make a profit, even if not all of you get the same amount of goodiness as others.

Evidently CCP is under the impression that their current development path will result in the same or more profit than before, and this relatively small sampling of forum goers says next to nothing about whether or not they are actually achieving that end.

Now logon metrics and subscription numbers both current and projected are another matter, which of course, involves feelings of goodiness in the product over time.

Sure, voice your discontent, but be careful you do not raise your voices so loudly that you do more damage than you are trying to avert in the first place.

You can be your own worst enemy very easily if you really want to be, doesn't take nearly as much as you'd think.

Still fanboing for CCP Deni? Still fighting the good fight, trying to convince anyone that speaking about something other than your own opinion couldn't possibly be right?

What you fail to realise (once again), is that no-one would have a problem on WOD or DUST or even Incarna being created if Eve FiS had sufficient developer time. These projects are taking away resources that could have been spent on Eve, and instead Eve is being neglected in favour of these projects.

Learn2business, you don't neglect your primary customer base to develop new cool hip things.

Unless your Apple ofc.

Some people think that all of the profits from Eve should go into developing Eve.

Some people think that all of th profits from Eve should go into developing other games.

Draw a line between between those two viewpoints.

Most people sit somewhere along that line, and are arguing that their's is the best spot.

More like

Some people think the profits from EvE should only be spent after they reinvest in the core product that is EvE. The basic Idea is that there is a minimum overhead of resources that should be given to EvE from our subscriptions that must be met before they reallocate resources to other games and new venture products.

What CCP did was put way less then the minimum required in terms of resources needed into the core product for YEARS at this point. In an attempt to front load new projects at the expense of the core existing product. Which seems to have lead to a corporate culture of viewing the customers not as customers but as little more then slaves on the plantation that should be happy to work for their masters. I'm looking at you Hilmar.

The insult on top of it all is when we finally get the big expansion they put so much on hold for years and when we get incarna its buggy as all get out, melts computers, and takes away from the gameplay experience in many ways. While adding nothing new to the core mechanics and content. Not to mention the insult that was the NEX store and its pricing. Im not sure if the NEX is madness or stupidity at this point honestly. The best thing was the new turret animations, but then botched that with turd icons. CCP created a textbook example for other companies on, "how not to introduce a cash shop". I hope other developers take note.

No one is saying they should not use our money to develop new games or projects. But before they do that they need to meet the minimum investment back into the game we pay for. Something that they have so far failed at to be honest. That is what the people angrey at CCP are saying.


The other Pro CCP side is only interested in putting words into dissenters mouths and creating straw men and acting like Saul Alinksy's. Rather then have a legitimate discourse on the matter. Though there are a few that are not just blowing smoke they and have valid points they get drowned out in a sea of CCP sycophants and brown shirt thugs. Whose basic argument seems to be that they can do whatever they want and you should just shut up and take it.

Some people on this forum aren't familiar with the disadvantages of having all your eggs in one basket...
Here's an EVE analogy:
You're solo-roaming in your completely officer-fit Drake, kicking piratical butt. Other ships don't stand a chance, as your uber-fit tears them to pieces. You have 0 ISK in wallet, and no assets in station. Who needs those, anyway? Surely you could never lose your Drake!
Wrong. You're blobbed by sixteen billion Dramiels and a Falcon, and lose everything. Back to square one. Enjoy your default insurance, and try to scrape your way back to the top. If only you had flown around in a T2 fit Drake, keeping billions of ISK safe in the form of station assets and cold, hard ISK.

And that is precisely why CCP are developing other games.

Very much like that.

Unless you are completely blind, it is obvious that EVE has not been severely down-prioritised over the last couple of years. A company of 600 people developing 3 games gives us very simply maths to figure out how much resources should go into each game in order for one not to be sacrificed to serve the others.

The example in the OP is that Apoc had drawn devs away from other projects and into EVE. The detail that is being missed here is that when Apoc was released, the company was about half the size it is today. So let's say ⅔ of the resources went into EVE rather than the ⅓ you'd expect… that's 200ppl minus overhead. Fast-forward to today when the company is 600 heads strong, and let's assume that they are, indeed, giving all games equal attention — that ⅓ of the resources are still going into EVE. That means the game should now have… 200ppl minus overhead working on it. And yet, nothing even remotely approaching the scope of Apoc has happned.

So only sane conclusion here is that, either they have only increased the headcount by adding overhead, or they are, indeed, not giving EVE the attention it gives the other games. I suppose it could be argued that, no, EVE has not had any resources diverted away from it — it still has the 100ppl strong crew it had three years ago… never mind that the other two then would have teams that are more than twice as large.