These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Two little suggestions regarding to alpha clones
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-05-04 08:16:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
I wanted to put this into the little suggestions thread but I realized how much peoples hate when alpha clones should get anything more for free so Im giving you chance to criticize this to the hell as usual.

Suggestion 1: Civilian mining drones
Remove the need for mining drones skill from these drones. Civilian hobgoblins also doesn't need light drone operations and these drones are completely useless to omegas anyway. So if alphas could use them it would make an usage for them at least.
Balance related, no there is no way how 2 civilian mining drones could lead to minerals price crash or something. The actual effect is almost neglible anyway but it will give alphas the feel of more options.

Suggestion 2: Advanced industry skill
Allow alpha clones to train this skill to at least level 1. It makes no sense that career agents give you a skillbook that you cannot use unless you are omega. And most new players will be alpha. Since the skillbook is already given, just allow alpha to train this skill. Again, I don't see how 3% reduction in manufactoring time makes any difference.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#2 - 2017-05-04 08:40:20 UTC
Civilian items are designed for use in the tutorial missions to demonstrate aspects of gameplay without requiring any skill. To the best of my knowledge they won't work outside the tutorial/career missions.

Some of the restrictions on Alpha characters are intended to prevent abuse by experienced players. A skill like advanced industry makes it a bit more attractive for someone like me to create an army of Alpha accounts and put them to work doing research or manufacturing. That would not be good for the game!

Alphas have been in the game now for roughly 6 months and the concept appears to be working well. There is always room for improvement and I wouldn't be surprised to see some minor tweaks over the summer but I don't thing increasing the income potential will be one of them - this is, after all an extended trial. There are no in game micro-transactions to monetize Alphas - they want you to subscribe!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2017-05-04 11:59:14 UTC
Civ drones, yeah. Even t1 i wouldn't mind.

Adv industry, no. Industry scales with more chars. So any free chars should get the bare minimum. Give them what they need to make a few ship/mods/ammo and get a taster for it, but that's it. If the items handed out in the tutorial bother you, change the tutorial (pretty sure thats coming anyways).

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-05-04 12:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
Do Little wrote:
Some of the restrictions on Alpha characters are intended to prevent abuse by experienced players. A skill like advanced industry makes it a bit more attractive for someone like me to create an army of Alpha accounts and put them to work doing research or manufacturing. That would not be good for the game!

Yes but first its just 3%.
Second, alpha clones can only copy blueprínts and craft t1 items with no value. The only really profitable modules they can craft are t1 rigs, everything else doesn't pay out especially because they have too lossy ore reprocess. I understand your concern but I don't think it would be abused. Or could be...

EDIT: I am alpha right now and I am crafting t1 rigs. There is really no need to use multiple characters for it. Even as alpha I can have 4 manufactoring jobs and thats well enough to efficiently use all the salvage I get (and buy).
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#5 - 2017-05-04 13:38:36 UTC
There is a short version at the end for those who do not want to read.

No, because slippery slope and where does it end, was the basis for for my initial comments in your post about the Gallente haulers. Your response there was essentially just this one small change because the restriction is unfair and it makes no sense.
Yet here you are back again with another just give us this one small change because it is unfair and it is only a 3% change.

I want to take a moment here to publicly thank you for proving me to be accurate, and proving that you and your requests for changes to the alpha clones is indeed a case of slippery slope.

1. Need access to Gallente industrial haulers for ALL alpha clones because unfair.
2. Need access to advanced industrial skill because they give us the skill book and 3% is not that much of an increase.
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???
6. ???
7. ???
8. ???
9. ???

So Vokan Narkar where does this list end?
Is the advanced industrial skill trained to level 1 the last?
Or when you get that will you want level 2 because it is unfair not to allow you to train it higher and after all it is only 3%?

If CCP did cave in and give you level 1 and 2 of the advanced industrial skill would you be happy with that, or would you be back here asking for level 3, 4 and 5 because not having them is unfair?

Alpha state clones are limited by design and on purpose. There are portions of those restrictions I do not agree with like the racial lock out on ships, however there are others that I agree with and restricting access to the advanced industrial skill is one of them that I agree with.

So here are some thoughts.

Sell that skill book and get a few ISK.

Trash it because you cannot stand to have it sitting in a corner tormenting you when you cannot train it.

Take it out and let it enjoy one last ride in space and then in a fit of anger and frustration eject it from your cargo hold where it will find eternal peace in the endless void that is the EvE universe. Or until it is removed as useless junk at downtime whichever occurs first.

Bury it in a container, in a hanger somewhere in EvE so it does not torment you but yoiu can still use it if / when you ever decide that omega is the path for you.

The promised short version.
-1 alpha do not deserve and they do not need the advanced industrial skill.
-1 because CCP gives it to you is not a guarantee that it will be of any use to you.
-1 because this is just another in what I am sure will be a long line of slippery slope ideas we will see from you.
Cade Windstalker
#6 - 2017-05-04 13:47:20 UTC
Do Little wrote:
Civilian items are designed for use in the tutorial missions to demonstrate aspects of gameplay without requiring any skill. To the best of my knowledge they won't work outside the tutorial/career missions.

Some of the restrictions on Alpha characters are intended to prevent abuse by experienced players. A skill like advanced industry makes it a bit more attractive for someone like me to create an army of Alpha accounts and put them to work doing research or manufacturing. That would not be good for the game!


Civilian items work fine outside of the Tutorials, they're just not very good.

I kind of have to agree with Vokan here that letting an Alpha train Advanced Industry to 1 wouldn't break anything, and it doesn't make a lot of sense for the Tutorials to give a skill book that an Alpha can't actually use. Either the skill is basic enough that Alphas should be able to train a level or two, or it's not and should be replaced with something else in the Tutorials.

In a career as optimization heavy as industry 3% to job time is... basically nothing. If you can find a way to make bank with an army of manufacturing alphas you deserve a medal, because I'm pretty sure it can't be done.

Donnachadh wrote:
There is a short version at the end for those who do not want to read.

No, because slippery slope and where does it end, was the basis for for my initial comments in your post about the Gallente haulers. Your response there was essentially just this one small change because the restriction is unfair and it makes no sense.
Yet here you are back again with another just give us this one small change because it is unfair and it is only a 3% change.


You do realize that the Slippery Slope is a fallacy, and in fact the exact opposite of a reasonable argument, right?

If we do X that does not imply that we're definitely doing X+1, let alone X+Infinity.

At the least he's presented a fairly reasonable argument based on consistency and usability here, and you've provided zero argument against it, you're just implying that it might break something down the line, or that clearly one level of a fairly basic skill that doesn't even impact profit margins is going to lead to cloaking alphas. Somehow.

Just what?
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#7 - 2017-05-04 13:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Vokan Narkar wrote:
There is really no need to use multiple characters for it. Even as alpha I can have 4 manufactoring jobs and thats well enough to efficiently use all the salvage I get (and buy).

Except there is reason, you have not been in the game long enough to discover it or you are one of the extremely rare players who does not care about maximizing your ISK per unit of time spent.
If you stretched your self just a little you could easily add another character. The profits of those 2 combined allow you to add a third character and it keeps building from there. As an example, numbers are for illustration purposes only and may or may not be accurate.

The reference to a unit of time below is simply the amount of time it takes to run a manufacturing job.

You make 10,000 ISK profit for each unit of time spent by utilizing those 4 slots available to Vokan these profit properly applied allow a second character.

The profits from that second character allow you to start a third.

And you keep building this way until you have the number of characters you want, or you reach the limit of characters you are willing to juggle.

If you make 10,000I SK per unit of time per character, and given that alpha characters are free and you can have as many as you want there is significant opportunity here to make huge amounts of ISK for no real cash money investment to help CCP maintain and further develop EvE. This is precisely the scenario the others are concerned about, and because YOU would not do this does not mean that others in the game would not. And since there are others in the game that WOULD abuse this it means simply that you cannot have it.;
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#8 - 2017-05-04 13:56:41 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Do Little wrote:
Civilian items are designed for use in the tutorial missions to demonstrate aspects of gameplay without requiring any skill. To the best of my knowledge they won't work outside the tutorial/career missions.

Some of the restrictions on Alpha characters are intended to prevent abuse by experienced players. A skill like advanced industry makes it a bit more attractive for someone like me to create an army of Alpha accounts and put them to work doing research or manufacturing. That would not be good for the game!


Civilian items work fine outside of the Tutorials, they're just not very good.

I kind of have to agree with Vokan here that letting an Alpha train Advanced Industry to 1 wouldn't break anything, and it doesn't make a lot of sense for the Tutorials to give a skill book that an Alpha can't actually use. Either the skill is basic enough that Alphas should be able to train a level or two, or it's not and should be replaced with something else in the Tutorials.

In a career as optimization heavy as industry 3% to job time is... basically nothing. If you can find a way to make bank with an army of manufacturing alphas you deserve a medal, because I'm pretty sure it can't be done.

Donnachadh wrote:
There is a short version at the end for those who do not want to read.

No, because slippery slope and where does it end, was the basis for for my initial comments in your post about the Gallente haulers. Your response there was essentially just this one small change because the restriction is unfair and it makes no sense.
Yet here you are back again with another just give us this one small change because it is unfair and it is only a 3% change.


You do realize that the Slippery Slope is a fallacy, and in fact the exact opposite of a reasonable argument, right?

If we do X that does not imply that we're definitely doing X+1, let alone X+Infinity.

At the least he's presented a fairly reasonable argument based on consistency and usability here, and you've provided zero argument against it, you're just implying that it might break something down the line, or that clearly one level of a fairly basic skill that doesn't even impact profit margins is going to lead to cloaking alphas. Somehow.

Just what?


Unfortunately Cade, I can not and will not agree with you on this one.
It is not the point of a single character/account that is unsubbed having the 3%.
It is the point of many free characters/accounts belonging to a single player having the ability.
The 3% reduction reduces not only the amount of time to build something, but because it does that it also reduces the production cost, especially in npc facilities.

So, yeah 1 guy not so much trouble.
1 guy with 10 free accounts......that could be real trouble.
no, this idea needs to go in the trash.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#9 - 2017-05-04 14:33:19 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You do realize that the Slippery Slope is a fallacy, and in fact the exact opposite of a reasonable argument, right?

You need to read up on slippery slope and this link will get you started.
Slippery Slope.

Essentially a slippery slope is the concern that a path or course of action being considered will lead to unintended and usually negative consequences. Alternatively slippery slope is used to define the situation once the process has started and you are headed down that unintended path toward what will likely be a negative ending.

Vokan's last two post are a classic example of that slippery slope and the argument is indeed valid, as its the concern that once CCP starts the process of eliminating restrictions on the alpha clones they are indeed starting down what would be an extremely slippery slope that could end badly for EvE and CCP.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#10 - 2017-05-04 14:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
Donnachadh wrote:
troll post?


I am suggesting things based on common sense. Special haulers were unfair. These two details doesn't have a sense.

Unification says anything to you?

You can use civilian hobgoblins without light drone operation skill, you cannot use civilian mining drones without mining drones skill which is restricted to omega. Does that make sense to you?

Advanced industry skillbook is already given to new players doing tutorial. Assuming that most players are alpha clones, does it make you sense that game gives them something they cannot use?

I am not starting a "give alphas skill that and that" just because I want more stuff for free. Am I calling for cloaks? Or mining barges? Please notice the difference.


EDIT: Yes and Im sorry but right now I am not subbed therefore many of my suggestions, but not all if you check the little suggestions thread, do affect alpha clone because I do notice those details. Once I sub I will be suggesting more omega-related things I promise.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#11 - 2017-05-04 14:56:11 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:


Advanced industry skillbook is already given to new players doing tutorial. Assuming that most players are alpha clones, does it make you sense that game gives them something they cannot use?




yep ok, granted.......
Now if you want it, sub/plex up...or sell it, but then if you plex/sub up later you will have to rebuy it.

So yeah it makes perfect sense to me considering the incentives to 'make' you want to sub.

now as to the drone issue, i personally do not like mining drones and anything not Faction, T2, etc is a waste of time and effort, so that i can see being allowed to the alphas the civilian mining drones.
Cade Windstalker
#12 - 2017-05-04 19:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Max Deveron wrote:
Unfortunately Cade, I can not and will not agree with you on this one.
It is not the point of a single character/account that is unsubbed having the 3%.
It is the point of many free characters/accounts belonging to a single player having the ability.
The 3% reduction reduces not only the amount of time to build something, but because it does that it also reduces the production cost, especially in npc facilities.

So, yeah 1 guy not so much trouble.
1 guy with 10 free accounts......that could be real trouble.
no, this idea needs to go in the trash.


Reducing the time doesn't reduce the production cost at all. All costs are based on the ME level of the Blueprint you're using, the efficiency of the facility, and the tax rate of the facility, which is per job not per unit time, and 3% time reduction is basically nothing.

On top of that anyone doing any kind of large scale manufacturing to the point that they've actually managed to become slot limited (which is not a common thing on a trained industry character) will still be better served by training up an alt on the same paid account, because Alphas are pretty much limited to basic T1 manufacturing. The effect of someone running Alphas as manufacturing alts on the T1 ship and module market would be basically zero, that market is already floored right around the base cost of materials.

This doesn't even particularly help legitimate Alpha clone players, it just removes a weird inconsistency from the tutorials.
Cade Windstalker
#13 - 2017-05-04 20:51:50 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
You need to read up on slippery slope and this link will get you started.
Slippery Slope.

Essentially a slippery slope is the concern that a path or course of action being considered will lead to unintended and usually negative consequences. Alternatively slippery slope is used to define the situation once the process has started and you are headed down that unintended path toward what will likely be a negative ending.

Vokan's last two post are a classic example of that slippery slope and the argument is indeed valid, as its the concern that once CCP starts the process of eliminating restrictions on the alpha clones they are indeed starting down what would be an extremely slippery slope that could end badly for EvE and CCP.


You may want to read your own sources before linking them. First off that article is literally filed under fallacies.

Second, to quote the article itself:
Quote:
....
This type of argument is sometimes used as a form of fear mongering, in which the probable consequences of a given action are exaggerated in an attempt to scare the audience. The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. In a non-fallacious sense, including use as a legal principle, a middle-ground possibility is acknowledged, and reasoning is provided for the likelihood of the predicted outcome.


You completely fail, at any point in your post above, to present any reasonable and rational argument for why A must lead to B. You also completely fail to acknowledge that CCP can, in fact, stop changing Alpha clones at any point.

What you've presented here is a pretty fantastic example of a fallacious slippery slope argument. Zero logic or reasoning, just a load of fear mongering and innuendo.