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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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The NEW PLAYER Experience
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Wei Tu Soon
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-04-30 03:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Wei Tu Soon
I'm a long time player and decided to create a new alpha clone. I finished the tutorial and have one observation. While it's commendable that CCP has tried to improve the experience for new players, I have to say, there is one area where they have failed.

For the longest time, one of the negative comments that always comes up is that Eve is BORING. There is a lot of evidence to support this complaint and the new player experience has a few examples.

There are several modules in the tutorial where the player is forced to burn to an object in space, whether it's a structure or enemy ship or whatever. In some cases the distance the player has to travel is ridiculous. I don't think that making a player spend over 4 minutes burning 130 km at 566 m/s with AB on, to an information node does much to dispel that rumor that Eve is boring. In fact it helps prove the point that it is! I went to the bathroom, got a drink and a bowl of ice cream and still had 20km to go when I returned.

In another case, I dropped out of warp 20km from the acceleration gate. Why? Isn't the goal of a tutorial to show the new player how much fun the game can be? I'm pretty sure it's not to get them to quit because it is a boring as people say.

Please fix the tutorials so that they move quicker and smoother.

Thanks!
Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2017-04-30 03:24:56 UTC
So, having not been through those modules this is going to be speculation for the most part, but if I had to guess those distances are there so a bunch of tutorial stuff can happen, like dialogue, or to impress something on the player like the importance of a prop mod or just that sites can be big.

Not everything that's slower or eats up time is inherently bad, it's only really bad if there's literally no reason for it.

For example traveling between regions of space in Eve is time consuming, but a lot of the gameplay that exists in the game wouldn't exist if this wasn't the case.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2017-04-30 04:16:16 UTC
The first one is for dialogue.
Second i don't know. 20km is not far (40 seconds @500m/s)

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2017-04-30 07:23:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Wei Tu Soon wrote:
In fact it helps prove the point that it is! I went to the bathroom, got a drink and a bowl of ice cream and still had 20km to go when I returned.

In another case, I dropped out of warp 20km from the acceleration gate. Why? Isn't the goal of a tutorial to show the new player how much fun the game can be? I'm pretty sure it's not to get them to quit because it is a boring as people say.

For the first case: If you do that in a real combat situation, you will die because you didn't pay attention when your fleet moved to that location in bubbles, for instance. Or in another instance, you have to burn 100s of km to a target to tackle it because you don't have a prober with you.

In the second case, this can happen all the time to you, in particular in the oh-so-fun null sec. While the tutorial does not expect you to react properly to such a camp, it prepares the player for the eventuality that you have to burn to a gate to get through.

The tutorial is not just there to showcase how much fun EVE can be, it is also there to demonstrate and prepare the player for the more prevalent "boring" parts of the game. With this, the they hopefully do not rush into the real game with too many wrong expectations and get their fantasies painfully hammered out of their heads by actual game play. Hooking new players up is one thing, hooking them up on too many wrong promises is another thing and it is very detrimental.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#5 - 2017-04-30 09:15:03 UTC
Space is big. A frigate warping at 5 AU/sec is moving 2400 times the speed of light. Distance matters in Eve - do you go 4 jumps to your local trade hub or 20 jumps to get a better price in Jita?

I went through the original inception last fall with a new character and thought the experience was very good. Certainly no complaints about the pacing. Haven't tried the latest version but exposing players to the scale of the game isn't a bad thing, it's something they'll need to get used to.
Cybertherion
Doomheim
#6 - 2017-04-30 12:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Cybertherion
Are alphas forced to do this tutorial you speak of? EDIT: That's a rhetorical question and if they are that's horrible.

I only post here if EvE is offline. Which means my posts are never well timed.

EAT KRABSAK.
Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2017-04-30 16:03:31 UTC
Cybertherion wrote:
Are alphas forced to do this tutorial you speak of? EDIT: That's a rhetorical question and if they are that's horrible.


Nope, you are fully free to skip it entirely.

It is highly recommended for an actually new player though.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#8 - 2017-04-30 23:03:35 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The first one is for dialogue.
Second i don't know. 20km is not far (40 seconds @500m/s)

I think the eight-second rule for webpage loading is apt here.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#9 - 2017-05-01 05:34:35 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The first one is for dialogue.
Second i don't know. 20km is not far (40 seconds @500m/s)

yes but its still boring...
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#10 - 2017-05-01 06:55:56 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The first one is for dialogue.
Second i don't know. 20km is not far (40 seconds @500m/s)

yes but its still boring...


I warped off for the 'approach the comms beacon' one thinking I could warp back to the item as a saved location. No dice. When it became clear at least 20 minutes were required to reach it, I docked up this alpha, closed all the pending dialogue boxes and scrapped its rookie ship. It didn't affect later gameplay much, especially when the beginner ISK-triggering opportunities were thankfully able to be completed outside of any actual tutorial mode. Got me enough to buy a well-fitted Venture to mine in lowsec. :)

The goal if I had to guess was CCP wanted some amount of navigation proficiency for beginners in the event they land off target to, say, a fleetmate mid warp, or attempt to keep inside the guns of a heavier DPS opponent.
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2017-05-01 16:23:24 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The first one is for dialogue.
Second i don't know. 20km is not far (40 seconds @500m/s)

yes but its still boring...


I warped off for the 'approach the comms beacon' one thinking I could warp back to the item as a saved location. No dice. When it became clear at least 20 minutes were required to reach it, I docked up this alpha, closed all the pending dialogue boxes and scrapped its rookie ship. It didn't affect later gameplay much, especially when the beginner ISK-triggering opportunities were thankfully able to be completed outside of any actual tutorial mode. Got me enough to buy a well-fitted Venture to mine in lowsec. :)

The goal if I had to guess was CCP wanted some amount of navigation proficiency for beginners in the event they land off target to, say, a fleetmate mid warp, or attempt to keep inside the guns of a heavier DPS opponent.



hmm, they should have thought someone would have done that, just like in the beginning where if you looted the cans too quickly you were blocked, but they fixed that. it might be worth reporting it as a bug, as it needs to be solved.
Cade Windstalker
#12 - 2017-05-01 16:42:22 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The first one is for dialogue.
Second i don't know. 20km is not far (40 seconds @500m/s)

yes but its still boring...


I warped off for the 'approach the comms beacon' one thinking I could warp back to the item as a saved location. No dice. When it became clear at least 20 minutes were required to reach it, I docked up this alpha, closed all the pending dialogue boxes and scrapped its rookie ship. It didn't affect later gameplay much, especially when the beginner ISK-triggering opportunities were thankfully able to be completed outside of any actual tutorial mode. Got me enough to buy a well-fitted Venture to mine in lowsec. :)

The goal if I had to guess was CCP wanted some amount of navigation proficiency for beginners in the event they land off target to, say, a fleetmate mid warp, or attempt to keep inside the guns of a heavier DPS opponent.


Um, what did you do that would require 20 minutes to get to anything in space in a rookie ship? That's enough time to slowboat over 200km, never mind if you have an AB fitted.

Also you get a mini-skill injector for going through the Tutorial a certain amount which is a good reason to keep going with it if you're an actual newbie.
Benje en Divalone
#13 - 2017-05-01 19:10:34 UTC
Wei Tu Soon wrote:
There are several modules in the tutorial where the player is forced to burn to an object in space, whether it's a structure or enemy ship or whatever. In some cases the distance the player has to travel is ridiculous. I don't think that making a player spend over 4 minutes burning 130 km at 566 m/s with AB on, to an information node does much to dispel that rumor that Eve is boring. In fact it helps prove the point that it is! I went to the bathroom, got a drink and a bowl of ice cream and still had 20km to go when I returned.

As somebody that's been here 2.5 months... The first time I did it I was still taking in the visuals. It got even better on subsequent play throughs because not only do I recognize those ships I see there's something a bit "off" about the scene.

After several times through of course I don't pay all that much attention to it. I can barely get back from a bio before I'm within the 5km hack range. Of course once this scene's done the next one (Astrahaus) still grabs my attention as I get to ogle all sorts of ships at scale. (CCPls, y no Naga?)

Tessa Sage wrote:
I warped off for the 'approach the comms beacon' one thinking I could warp back to the item as a saved location. No dice. When it became clear at least 20 minutes were required to reach it, I docked up this alpha, closed all the pending dialogue boxes and scrapped its rookie ship.

It's well hidden but you can reset the phase (thankfully). I've needed that when I pre-activated a requirement and I got stuck.

Tessa Sage wrote:
The goal if I had to guess was CCP wanted some amount of navigation proficiency for beginners in the event they land off target to, say, a fleetmate mid warp, or attempt to keep inside the guns of a heavier DPS opponent.

If that's what CCP intends then they need to stop presenting Autopilot as the primary means of flying. Manually warping gate to gate is only complicated because the UI is poo not because of "information overload".
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#14 - 2017-05-01 21:31:13 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Also you get a mini-skill injector for going through the Tutorial a certain amount which is a good reason to keep going with it if you're an actual newbie.


That's good to know Cade, this was indeed on a separate account when this toon was out of Plex last winter. :)

The first trial run, it took 11 minutes of afterburner to get to the communication array while dialogue only lasted 3 minutes. I warped off partway through that, intent on using a ping behind the object, only to land at mission start, accumulating another 10 minutes of thumb twiddling @_@
Ronnie Rose
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2017-05-02 03:13:15 UTC
Boring is just part of the game.

We're not here to change the game, we're here to change YOUR game
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#16 - 2017-05-02 10:22:55 UTC
Ronnie Rose wrote:
Boring is just part of the game.



Boring is the lag between new content (upstream problem solving) and afterthought eddies (overlooked game issues). The only time I'm bored, is when the forecast in game shows chance of zero sum. I am a better swimmer than just dog paddling, but I digress.

Benje en Divalone wrote:
Of course once this scene's done the next one (Astrahaus) still grabs my attention as I get to ogle all sorts of ships at scale. (CCPls, y no Naga?)


Indeed, the Caldari campaign's fleet staging scene is not bad. Now if only your NPC mentors were walking the inner decks of one of the battleships, escorting you to the hangar bay where you'd undock your Ibis alongside other realtime pilots...
manus
Subhypersonics
#17 - 2017-05-02 13:55:27 UTC
I dont know about you guys, but i didnt need a new player experience when i first got into EVE. What you do is you put the player in the middle of the universe and then its up to him to figure out how the **** everything works. CCP's time is better spent on creating new content. Not these tutorials that serve no use to anyone anyway when you can just go online and look up whatever you dont undertand or is curous about.
Cade Windstalker
#18 - 2017-05-02 14:18:09 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:


That's good to know Cade, this was indeed on a separate account when this toon was out of Plex last winter. :)

The first trial run, it took 11 minutes of afterburner to get to the communication array while dialogue only lasted 3 minutes. I warped off partway through that, intent on using a ping behind the object, only to land at mission start, accumulating another 10 minutes of thumb twiddling @_@


IMO that's not too bad. While you might try to bring it up to CCP there's probably a reason for the extra lag time there, either for repeated dialogue or some other reason.

manus wrote:
I dont know about you guys, but i didnt need a new player experience when i first got into EVE. What you do is you put the player in the middle of the universe and then its up to him to figure out how the **** everything works. CCP's time is better spent on creating new content. Not these tutorials that serve no use to anyone anyway when you can just go online and look up whatever you dont undertand or is curous about.


As someone who has spent a significant chunk of his time in the last 8 years educating others about how various bits of the game work, just no. Everything about this, no.

All of the top reasons I see otherwise potentially good and valuable future members of the wider Eve community drop out could be solved with a better new player experience. This idea that Eve is super amazingly complicated or needs to brutalize newbies in some way is asinine.

Yes, you can look up almost anything on this or any other game online, but half the new players in this game don't even know enough to know what they're supposed to be looking up. They've heard how hard this game is, so they assume it'll all be hard and complicated, and the end result is a lot of people quitting the game before they even really start.

Teach someone how simple this game can be if you want it to be and you see a lot more retained newbies turning into vets.