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Dig Deeper: PLEX is the reason for the highsec v nullsec Drama

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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2012-01-23 08:02:05 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Crystal Liche wrote:


Its a GAME, people do what the like, that is all.


Since it's a GAME and people do what they like, they won't have an issue if incursions netted 40M per hour right?


Unless they like ISK in the wallet for no obvious purpose Big smile And dont want to make it via market.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#62 - 2012-01-23 08:31:17 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
One pro tip to the nullbears: Don't compare incursion income to the 23/7 cylce you let your bots run. No incursion pilot is online for that much time and because people don't bot they need a break from time to time, you will also have to factor sleep and a wide number of RL activities into this.


Read below, even if that will make you feel clueless.


Jorn Isu wrote:

I'm new here, so forgive me if I completely misunderstand the situation, but:

This is similar to how cops defend accusations of abuses of power with "I don't do it, none of my friends do it, therefore it doesn't exist!" By willingly coexisting with bots (My understanding is that most major null alliances have "do not report" rules, at least with regards to their own bots, and possibly "do not report" NAPs), you are complicit in the activity.


Yes you misunderstand the situation.

The PvPers (including in null sec) have completely another mentality compared to the botters.
PvPers are active, sometimes reckless guys who like to blow up stuff and then grind a couple anomalies / L4 to make up for the losses, their corps (mine had) ship loss reimbursement programs. They don't like nor need to bot.

Botters are business oriented individuals with strong aversion to anything that makes their business disrupted. They just farm.
They are even more "bears" than hi sec bears, their ships have cloaks / insta warps and so on.
Unlike PvPers they don't want to boast, they don't want to be under the spotlight, they don't want to blow any ISK, they want to potentially make huge ISK with no loss.

PvPers are those who sweat their ass to earn sov. They boast on the forums and post killboards.
Botters are those obscure and secluded renters who you never hear about.

Only the leadership of sov holding alliances (and not the "PvPers", they are really but the grunts) *might* know that botters rented their systems.
Most often the leadership don't even want to know, they just take the ISK without investigating.


Finally:

enter incursions, aka a "just farm" activity, with no rent fee to pay no AFK cloakers, no gate campers, no roamers. Vastly higher payoff than bot ratting in 0.0.
The PARADISE for RMTers. Just have the Chinese slave multibox incursions (as it seems they do in some of their jails) insted of 0.0 anomalies.

Can you exclude that?
Do you REALLY believe that RMTers won't switch to the obvious -risk +reward chicken with golden eggs?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#63 - 2012-01-23 08:32:00 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Crystal Liche wrote:


Its a GAME, people do what the like, that is all.


Since it's a GAME and people do what they like, they won't have an issue if incursions netted 40M per hour right?


Unless they like ISK in the wallet for no obvious purpose Big smile And dont want to make it via market.


Just debunking "THEY DO IT FOR THE GAME" fallacity.


Vallek Arkonnis wrote:


You're comparing apples and oranges; hisec group PvE vs. nullsec solo PvE. The risk involved in nullsec solo PvE is offset by the convenience in that you can go anytime you want. Whereas, if you've tried hisec Incursions, you could be stuck in the channel spamming for a fleet for a small portion of forever. There's good money, sure, but only after you finally get a fleet.


And you are talking out of your ass.
The risk involved in solo PvE nullsec is offset by:

- being in a gimped cloaky / ECCM etc. ship, having to GTFO every time a neutral enters a system.

- having a number of corpies camp the gate(s) and WH entrances to the system. Oh wait, that's not really "solo", isn't it?


Also, if you are channel spamming for an incursion fleet you are one of those randoms who don't join "premades" and exactly because you don't want to pour in the socializing effort you seem to imply.



Borascus wrote:
Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field - ~20 billion isk? Only available in Guristas Space? Guristas Space is Null-sec?


Nope. Estamel inv field equals to ZERO Isk created. It won't make PLEX rise or anything because it does not create any money out of nowhere.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-01-23 09:02:05 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Andski wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Andski wrote:
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Nerf high sec Incursions rewards


PS. Your 0.0 leaders have tech moons i'm sure they won't quit EVE.


incursions and tech are basically competing entities

leave incursions unchecked and tech will go up up up because of inflation


Then we better start worrying about the main isk faucets then, bounties overall rather than incursions which arent the main contributor by a long shot. And suprise suprise, best bounties are in null sec.


source?


What is the problem with Nullsec Alliance members that they deny everything, even if it is commonly known to be true. Bounties scale with security level, so don't be a jackass.


the anomaly nerf screwed up 0.0 line member income and caused a lot of inward migration to highsec to run incursions

100m/hour anoms aren't a thing anymore unless you dualbox a carrier and tengu

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tian Nu
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-01-23 09:04:08 UTC
i wanted to post something but while i was typing i forgot what it was... damn.Straight

Father O'Malley about Darius III begging for whelp: “Hows that working out for ya ? I make it 02:21 and all I see is you begging Riverini to get numbers and trying to recruit from the incursion public channel.”
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-01-23 09:04:15 UTC
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:


You're comparing apples and oranges; hisec group PvE vs. nullsec solo PvE. The risk involved in nullsec solo PvE is offset by the convenience in that you can go anytime you want. Whereas, if you've tried hisec Incursions, you could be stuck in the channel spamming for a fleet for a small portion of forever. There's good money, sure, but only after you finally get a fleet.

lol wut


I thought the same thing, but i thought it to be rude to say it...

Solo null-sec PVE, lol.


Wow, thought you guys would be smarter than this.

Anomalies = solo
Ratting = solo
Incursions = fleet

solo content =/= group content

This is an mmo. The rewards for solo play should never be greater than group play.


that is nonsense

you're comparing solo PvE in nullsec, a risky activity, to group PvE in highsec, a low-risk activity

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-01-23 09:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Borascus wrote:
Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field - ~20 billion isk? Only available in Guristas Space? Guristas Space is Null-sec?


you realize that officer spawns are hilariously hard to get (they're not exactly something you look for), and even harder to kill, right? if you find one, you need some hilarious DPS to break their regen, and by the time you kill it (usually with two carriers or an SC) you're not exactly guaranteed to get a 20bn officer mod.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#68 - 2012-01-23 09:28:05 UTC
Read OP left thread dissapointed .

OP clearly mispelled 'Incursions' in his title ( ie it doesn't start with P or end in X ) Roll

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#69 - 2012-01-23 12:04:01 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:

Do you have any figures to demonstrate that of all the faucets in the game incurions are the main contributor? Especially when you could consider that bounties globally from the game could be considerably more than incurions.
Are you familiar with the conditional statement, often signified by the word "if"?

Anyway, yes. As show in the last QEN, those numbers had not changed much since then (the QEN gave them per months, rather than as a daily slice, but the numbers are roughly the same, or maybe ~5 percent higher, and then the CSM minutes seem to suggest that those numbers have decreased due to the move away from L4s and the sanc nerf). That would put bounties at no more than 950B ISK/day at the moment, which is far below the supposed 1.3T ISK/day from incursions.

Quote:
And have you considered that ISK movement in the market can equally change prices without the aspect of ISK injection into the whole economy.
Yes, but it's the ISK injection that has to be balanced against the sinks and the production, not the trading.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2012-01-23 12:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Tippia wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

Do you have any figures to demonstrate that of all the faucets in the game incurions are the main contributor? Especially when you could consider that bounties globally from the game could be considerably more than incurions.
Are you familiar with the conditional statement, often signified by the word "if"?

Anyway, yes. As show in the last QEN, those numbers had not changed much since then (the QEN gave them per months, rather than as a daily slice, but the numbers are roughly the same, or maybe ~5 percent higher, and then the CSM minutes seem to suggest that those numbers have decreased due to the move away from L4s and the sanc nerf). That would put bounties at no more than 950B ISK/day at the moment, which is far below the supposed 1.3T ISK/day from incursions.


Please explain where you got the "supposed 1.3T ISk/day from incursions? And the supporting evidence that coroborates this. As obviously from your own figures something must be wrong then as the ISK from incursions as I understand it are bounties?

Unless of course there isn't an accurate an up to date piece of evidence to provide any support to your claims. Heaven forbid.

Quote:
Quote:
And have you considered that ISK movement in the market can equally change prices without the aspect of ISK injection into the whole economy.
Yes, but it's the ISK injection that has to be balanced against the sinks and the production, not the trading.


Yet your argument was about plex price increases. All I'm saying is you have no evidence to suggest that plex price increases are due to inflation and that it is linked soley to incursion activities, as opposed to ISK movements within the economy. Again unsupported speculation.

Yet the recent plex spike co-incided with the crucible expansion and after the power of two promotion. Which seams more of a evidential reason for people buying more plex than one due to incursions where you'd expect to see a gradual increase within the term incurions have been valid for?

Also plex is sold in units of 100k+ / month according to the QEN. So your telling me that its accounted for by all the incursion runners. If there are 5000 of them thats 20 each per month.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2012-01-23 12:58:48 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Please explain where you got the "supposed 1.3T ISk/day from incursions?
Look at the quote you used. Also, look up the meaning of "if".
Quote:
Yet your argument was about plex price increases.
No. The argument was about ISK injection compared to the trading volume of a high-value commodity.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-01-23 13:15:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Please explain where you got the "supposed 1.3T ISk/day from incursions?
Look at the quote you used. Also, look up the meaning of "if".
Quote:
Yet your argument was about plex price increases.
No. The argument was about ISK injection compared to the trading volume of a high-value commodity.



If, but, maybe, semantics, re-define, loose definitions. Should be an e-lawyer.

Yet there isnt any evidence to prove that the ISK isnt simply moving around rather than as a result of faucets. You seem incapable of grasping this simple economic fact. And pressure your sole beleif its all due to faucets. As if you re-read your own thread you were quoting that all the trading value could be as a result of faucets alone.

However with all the speculation you havent really provided us with any real solid argument, So its pointless trying to worry about something that hasnt been proven to exist.

Pointless trying to debate it with you if you can grasp fundamental principles however.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2012-01-23 13:37:31 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
If, but, maybe, semantics, re-define, loose definitions. Should be an e-lawyer.
Maybe if you took your time to actually read what you respond to, these things wouldn't have to be pointed out to you.

Quote:
Yet there isnt any evidence to prove that the ISK isnt simply moving around rather than as a result of faucets.
Which ISK are you talking about?

I'm talking about the ISK injected by incursions, and there is no evidence needed: the ISK is injected by very definition of injecting ISK. You keep talking about things that have never even been mentioned. If you're going to comment on a post, comment on what's actually said in the post, not on something completely different.

Quote:
As if you re-read your own thread you were quoting that all the trading value could be as a result of faucets alone.
Oh ffs. Go read it again. This time, actually read it. No-one is saying that. Put down the shrooms and stop hallucinating.
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-01-23 13:39:07 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:


NullSec isn't mad about wallet balances, they are mad because they have lost their alt accounts.


a small fix for more honesty and truth Bear
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#75 - 2012-01-23 13:56:46 UTC
Andski wrote:
you realize that officer spawns are hilariously hard to get (they're not exactly something you look for), and even harder to kill, right? if you find one, you need some hilarious DPS to break their regen, and by the time you kill it (usually with two carriers or an SC) you're not exactly guaranteed to get a 20bn officer mod.


Say what? What changed? I recall killing officer spawns solo in a battleship.

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Josephine Sokarad
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-01-23 14:26:10 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:
they are mad because they have lost true friends.


MMM Yummy tears.
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2012-01-23 14:29:24 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:
they are mad because they have lost true friends.


http://soundcloud.com/miah-1-1/old-guard

Sad

o7o7o7o7o7o7o7o7o7o7o7o7om8m8m8m8m8m8m8mm8m8m8
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#78 - 2012-01-23 16:05:14 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:
Why PLEX?

PLEX is one of those unique commodities that allows froobs to play EVE. Back before the world economy went down in flames, most people subscribed, and applied PLEX to increase wealth. A select amount of no life froobs could exploit local resources in a work to live arrangement. All was good.

Enter Incursions, 2b ISK per pilot per 24 hours if allowed to run unmolested and in highsec that is always allowed. The nullsec froob either quits eve or becomes a subber. Mostly they just quit. Post Incursion Null is a vacuum, if you can avoid the roaming hostiles you can earn 50 to 60m an hour ratting if you get a faction mod or two. But only an idiot would remain. Highsec incursions draw 130m+ an hour with no roaming gangs or dependance on drops.

In simple terms incursions killed nullsec, and forced hundreds of nullsec players to quit EVE. Incursions changed the f
population and gameplay of EVE. EVE was a game about the conquest of empires. EVE is now about instanced raids, and who can box the most pilots.

Risk v Reward is now just reward.

NullSec isn't mad about wallet balances, they are mad because they have lost true friends.

Interesting perspective, but more like mad because they lost fodder for Blob Warfare. Friends you say? In some cases yes but mostly tempoary acquaintances of convenience. Like Diplomacy, saying nice doggy till you can find a big enough stick. Cool

......................................................
OldMan Gana
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-01-23 16:12:45 UTC
Move Incursions to NPC Null.

Love United- Hate Glazer
Martyr Theos
The NecroMonger Faith
#80 - 2012-01-23 16:40:50 UTC
Jenny Cameron wrote:
Wot I Think wrote:
Enter Incursions, 2b ISK per pilot per 24 hours if allowed to run unmolested and in highsec that is always allowed. The nullsec froob either quits eve or becomes a subber. Mostly they just quit. Post Incursion Null is a vacuum, if you can avoid the roaming hostiles you can earn 50 to 60m an hour ratting if you get a faction mod or two. But only an idiot would remain. Highsec incursions draw 130m+ an hour with no roaming gangs or dependance on drops.

I thought EVE was about having fun, not making ISK?


No, EVE is about making money. Period.


Wake up and smell the coffee>>>

Who is this man? >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Björgólfur_Thor_Björgólfsson

What is his relationship to this company and CCP? >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_Partners

What is the connection between Zero RMT Corps, RMT websites, and people connected to the above?


When you have figured this out, ask yourself why you are gambling in a crooked casino.


(Doubt this? How else is it that supercaps are getting supplied to RMT sites without the collusion of Zero Corps? You can't build those things in high sec and you need a ship building array to do it. Do you think these things can be used without Corps knowing it? Logic dictates that some of the Zero Corps are in on this. Logic dictates that CCP knows who is doing it. Logic dictates that the investors are spicing up their rate of return by engaging in RMT, in essence competing in the game itself.)

You guys are playing a rigged game. I'm not the first one to point this out. Blink