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Death by my own stupidity, help me understand it.
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Garvin Heraad
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2017-04-28 15:07:31 UTC
And use small words, because remember, I'm stupid.

I was running a Superior Sleeper Cache and after looting all the best cans, I spotted a ship on d-scan too close to be doing anything except coming for me. The site signature had long since disappeared, and I had been watching d-scan diligently for combat probes, so this could only mean that someone had bookmarked the site entrance and not run the site. Probably had intended to kill someone like me at the entrance but was not in system when I slipped through.

I immediately cloaked and waited to see if the intruder would hunt through the rooms for me. He did, and I warped the hell out, used a mobile depot to fit for scan/travel, and I was home free, cloaked in a safe spot with all my loot.

And then, my stupidity.

Hey! I should warp back to the entrance and get a better look at who was trying to get me. And so I selected a bookmark I had previously made while 100km away from the site entrance and then I selected warp to 0km on that bookmark.

I warped in, not 100km from the entrance, but right on top of it. My cloak dropped. Two ships were waiting, probably cursing their luck right up until the moment I stupidly parked my flying piñata right in front of them. They dropped a bubble. No warp. No cloak. Soon, no loot, no ship, no pod.

SO: I had already known that bookmarks made anywhere inside deadspace will warp you to the site entrance, but am I right to believe that bookmarks made anywhere on-grid with the site entrance will ALSO warp you to the site entrance? Because I did not know that, and today has been a very expensive and humiliating lesson.
Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
#2 - 2017-04-28 15:16:28 UTC
Good question, since I would be like you and not have known about the default to site gate if what you said is true. If not, I suspect that in the excitement of avoiding the initial gank/encounter caused you to err and select the wrong bookmark to warp back to, i.e., the gate/site itself. I know that I have to be extra careful when I have multiple BMs in a system and I'm excited/stressed about active hostiles trying to find me. Please let us know what you find out.

To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.

...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.
Garvin Heraad
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2017-04-28 20:05:45 UTC
I can now confirm. For all sleeper sites, if you are on-grid with the entrance Hyperfluct Generator, despite conceptually being "outside" the site, you are already inside the deadspace pocket as far as bookmark mechanics are concerned. Any bookmarks made anywhere in deadspace, including anywhere on-grid with the entrance Hyperfluct Generator, will all function as though they were bookmarks to the site entrance.

This explains the game mechanic particulars of my recent disaster, though why I would risk my ship and loot just to peek at some hostiles remains an unfathomable mystery.

I would suspect, but can not yet confirm, that all deadpsace pockets work this way, and that any bookmarks made some distance away from (but still on-grid with) an accelerator gate would likewise all function as though they were bookmarks to the gate itself.
Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
#4 - 2017-04-28 23:36:39 UTC
Pardon me being dense, but I want to make sure on what happened to you. Did you make the 100km BM while IN the site or before you entered the site? If it was in the site, I understand what happened better. Although the site beacon was no longer present, the other players kept the site active as you originally warped out to your safe spot. When you attempted to warp to your 100km from the gate location (located IN deadspace), the game placed you at the entrance to the still active deadspace because, as per the standard game mechanics that all deadspace sites have, you appeared at the closest normal space entrance to the deadspace area since you cannot warp directly into a gated deadspace area.

If you placed the 100km BM outside the initial generator location/gate in normal space, I have no idea on this game mechanic.

To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.

...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-04-29 03:20:16 UTC
Sorry to hear that, definitely an expensive lesson to learn.

If you really needed to know who was looking for you, you could have cloak warped around and checked Corp owners of anchored POS's in that W-hole. That would have given you a general idea of who was occupying that w-hole.

However since your presence was already known to the w-hole inhabitants after getting to your safespot cloaked, you should have just sat there for a while running D-scan, then leave that w-hole, stash your loot and go to another one.

Anyway, now that you know what happened, you'll do much better on the next one.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Garvin Heraad
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2017-04-29 03:31:07 UTC
No, I can understand why you'd think that as, conceptually, before we get through the entrance, we imagine ourselves to be outside the site, but I tell you: if you are on-grid with the entrance, even before you enter it for the first time, you are already in deadspace, and any bookmarks you make will behave as all bookmarks made inside deadspace pockets behave.

I had been accustomed to thinking that entrances were points in normal space, but it isn't so. They, too, are inside the deadspace pocket, even though they serve as entry points to the site proper. This deadspace "room zero" is where you warp to after scanning down a site.

If you make a bookmark 100km from an entrance, you are already in deadspace. You might think that you are in normal space, 100km away from the entrance to deadspace, but you're not. If you do make such a bookmark, then warp away, and then warp to zero on your bookmark, it will behave as all bookmarks in deadspace behave, and you will land right on top of the entrance.
Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
#7 - 2017-04-29 18:50:56 UTC
Interesting! Thanks for posting a followup explanation; something I'll have to keep in mind for the future.

To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.

...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#8 - 2017-05-01 13:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Linus Gorp
Garvin Heraad wrote:
No, I can understand why you'd think that as, conceptually, before we get through the entrance, we imagine ourselves to be outside the site, but I tell you: if you are on-grid with the entrance, even before you enter it for the first time, you are already in deadspace, and any bookmarks you make will behave as all bookmarks made inside deadspace pockets behave.

I had been accustomed to thinking that entrances were points in normal space, but it isn't so. They, too, are inside the deadspace pocket, even though they serve as entry points to the site proper. This deadspace "room zero" is where you warp to after scanning down a site.

If you make a bookmark 100km from an entrance, you are already in deadspace. You might think that you are in normal space, 100km away from the entrance to deadspace, but you're not. If you do make such a bookmark, then warp away, and then warp to zero on your bookmark, it will behave as all bookmarks in deadspace behave, and you will land right on top of the entrance.

To make this more simple:

The warp-to point of a deadspace site (mission sites, anomalies, signatures, ...) is always the beacon in that site. Warping at 100 to a bookmark in a deadspace site doesn't warp you to your bookmark, but 100km away from the beacon.
In gated deadspace sites, the warp-to point is always the first gate.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Garvin Heraad
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2017-05-01 14:57:01 UTC
I can't disagree with any of what you wrote, and simple explanations are always best. I believe, though, that it's worth noting explicitly that when a pilot approaches a Hyperflux Generator or Acceleration Gate or whatever object serves as the entrance to a site, that pilot is already inside deadspace. I think it might be common for a pilot to assume he or she is in normal space until activating such an object and warping into the site proper, but being in deadspace while thinking one is still in normal space can have dire and expensive consequences (particularly if the pilot is me and makes fool decisions).

Best advice: DON'T WARP to where you know hostiles are waiting for you unless you intend to engage those hostiles. Be smarter than Garvin.

Less useful advice: Be aware of the mechanics of deadspace sites and understand that even the area outside the "gate object" is part of deadspace, and so bookmarks made on-grid with this object will all function as though they were bookmarks for the object itself.
Henry Tesero
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2017-05-15 19:31:49 UTC
I'm curious about this mechanic as well.

In your testing, BM'ing. Have you tried flying 100KM or more away from the entrance gate and BM'ing as a location in space? Or were you just BM'ing the acceleration gate and warping to that BM at 100KM.

If the latter, then yes I can see how current mechanics would warp you to 0 (though I've heard if you initiate warp, then cancel and re-initiate at distance sometimes it works, never been 100% for me).

I do know that in explo sites if you fly away from the cans and BM that point in space you will not warp back to the beacon but that point in space.

Nonetheless, I respect your attitude to understanding what happened and not immediately crying foul at CCP for designing a stupid system and they should do this that and the other and reimburse my ship and yadda yadda.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#11 - 2017-05-15 21:46:35 UTC
FWIW deadspace just works like that, you can go to a Faction Warfare plex, make a bookmark 300km off the gate, warp to 0 and you will be on the gate, not 300km off. if you try to warp to someone inside, you also land at the gate. Not ever PVE situation is in deadspace though, it is really important to make a mental note of the mechanics governing the site you are at.