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A way to make data sites equall to relics
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Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-04-23 23:41:10 UTC
This problem was discussed in general discussion, I am moving it here with a solution.

We all know data sites sucks. Of course experienced explorer still scans them because it could be a sleeper or ghost site, but it its not, most folks ignores them and I do too. Sure I enjoy the exploration and I used to make every single data and relic I did and I always looted everything, cargo scanner never made a way into my fit. But now after so many runs I go for profit and ignore them. As much as I like the hacking mini-game and probing, when I see its going to be a normal data I move to other sig. Its just waste of time ISK wise. I actually have enough ISKs and I don't need to make it for profit but when you know the overall value you can find in data site in lowsec is 2mil top, why risk it and bother...

Reasons for this are that the loot from data sites is also obtainable from R&D and FW and there is lower demand for it than for salvage hence the lower player costs for it.

So to fix it.

1) Increase the appearance of high-tech stuff, the bpcs for faction analysers drops too often and this stuff almost doesn't drop. I have over 40 bpcs for analysers and they are all for 3 runs but I was not even able to farm 100 of each high-tech stuff myself.

2) Add a new loot that will act as blue loot in J-space right now. No exact proposal but possibly 3 types of it one that will drop in least difficult caches, one in medium and one in high diff. It could be bought by Interbus or some trade npc faction the same way blue loot is bought now.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#2 - 2017-04-24 03:48:10 UTC
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.
Krysenth
Saints Of Havoc
#3 - 2017-04-24 05:31:31 UTC
The problem isnt exactly with data sites. It's with how prolific blueprint copies are (and t2 bpos play a part), how easy it is to get datacores (research points), and how often that sort of stuff is consumed. Let's be honest, if I had a 40% chance of invention success per run without a decryptor, I'd rather do 5/10/20 runs with a 40% success rate rather than spend an additional 3-4 million isk per run to increase that to roughly 70%. Since EVE uses ccpmath as well, it's more likely than not that i'll have MORE failures using the spendy decryptors than I do WITHOUT any.
Relic sites, on the other hand, spew out salvage better than many ratting anomalies do, and they're used in manufacturing rigs, which tend to be very consumable.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2017-04-24 06:07:59 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.

That's what I have suggested in the past as well. These components are already being used in COSMOS items but no one uses these items by comparison. I leave these components behind all the time because they only take space in hangars without adding any value and add worthless clutter. In my opinion, this is a very elegant solution: It does not require the addition of new items, it reuses existing items, it does not require a change to loot tables and it marginally to significantly increases pirate ship prices which are too cheap anyways.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#5 - 2017-04-24 18:16:45 UTC
that sounds good as well guys, lets hope some dev will notice this
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2017-04-24 18:33:46 UTC
Why do they have to be equal?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-04-24 19:21:11 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.

You would crash the value of pirate BPC since the limiting factor to build them would not be getting the BPC but the special material. You just moved a "problem" from one place to the other.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#8 - 2017-04-24 20:17:50 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.

You would crash the value of pirate BPC since the limiting factor to build them would not be getting the BPC but the special material. You just moved a "problem" from one place to the other.


honest I don't understand why Pirate BPC haven't crashed given how much people farm DED site.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2017-04-25 06:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.

You would crash the value of pirate BPC since the limiting factor to build them would not be getting the BPC but the special material. You just moved a "problem" from one place to the other.

I don't see that happening. Every Data Site drops dozens to hundreds of these components per site. If these things become useful, there would be even more people collecting them who, like me, have left them behind until that point, as well as more people would want to and do run them, which in turn increases supply even further.
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Why do they have to be equal?

They would not become equal, they would just become better than they currently are. Right now, a Relic Site drops 98% useful items (carbon is not useful because worthless due to the low quantity). A Data Site, on the other hand, drops at best 70%, at worst 0% useful items (70% with decryptors, datacores, high-tech items and a good blueprint + the useless carbon, useless blueprint, useless components, 0% if you only get carbon and/or components).

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#10 - 2017-04-25 23:14:44 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.

You would crash the value of pirate BPC since the limiting factor to build them would not be getting the BPC but the special material. You just moved a "problem" from one place to the other.

Only if demand for Pirate BS hulls was greater than the total supply from Data sites.

You're making the assumption a new bottleneck is going to form around the special material.

Do you have any evidence that that will be the case?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2017-04-26 02:47:40 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:

Only if demand for Pirate BS hulls was greater than the total supply from Data sites.

You're making the assumption a new bottleneck is going to form around the special material.

Do you have any evidence that that will be the case?

In order to add significant value the materials have to be at least a slight bottleneck.
However now we are into the question of where the pirate BPC's come from. Are they being farmed in the LP store, or from drops, or a balance between the two.
If it's anything less than 95% from drops the LP store & the market will act as a natural balance where as the BPC becomes less valuable, people start using other LP items, & then the materials no longer bottleneck relative to the new supply of BPC's.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#12 - 2017-04-26 05:10:51 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:

Only if demand for Pirate BS hulls was greater than the total supply from Data sites.

You're making the assumption a new bottleneck is going to form around the special material.

Do you have any evidence that that will be the case?

In order to add significant value the materials have to be at least a slight bottleneck.
However now we are into the question of where the pirate BPC's come from. Are they being farmed in the LP store, or from drops, or a balance between the two.
If it's anything less than 95% from drops the LP store & the market will act as a natural balance where as the BPC becomes less valuable, people start using other LP items, & then the materials no longer bottleneck relative to the new supply of BPC's.


I won't be surprised if Drop Loot are accounted between 40%-60% of Pirate BPC supply.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2017-04-26 14:01:34 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.

You would crash the value of pirate BPC since the limiting factor to build them would not be getting the BPC but the special material. You just moved a "problem" from one place to the other.

I don't see that happening. Every Data Site drops dozens to hundreds of these components per site. If these things become useful, there would be even more people collecting them who, like me, have left them behind until that point, as well as more people would want to and do run them, which in turn increases supply even further.


If you don't create a bottleneck, then the market will get flooded and the value of the data site will crash back down after an initial rush.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2017-04-26 14:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You would crash the value of pirate BPC since the limiting factor to build them would not be getting the BPC but the special material. You just moved a "problem" from one place to the other.

I don't see that happening. Every Data Site drops dozens to hundreds of these components per site. If these things become useful, there would be even more people collecting them who, like me, have left them behind until that point, as well as more people would want to and do run them, which in turn increases supply even further.


If you don't create a bottleneck, then the market will get flooded and the value of the data site will crash back down after an initial rush.

I am more arguing along the lines that there is enough supply so that adding these components as build requirements to pirate item BPCs would not negatively impact their use. There is enough room to adjust drop rates down in order to increase the components' price a bit.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#15 - 2017-04-27 11:56:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.

You would crash the value of pirate BPC since the limiting factor to build them would not be getting the BPC but the special material. You just moved a "problem" from one place to the other.

I don't see that happening. Every Data Site drops dozens to hundreds of these components per site. If these things become useful, there would be even more people collecting them who, like me, have left them behind until that point, as well as more people would want to and do run them, which in turn increases supply even further.


If you don't create a bottleneck, then the market will get flooded and the value of the data site will crash back down after an initial rush.

Is New Eden being completely mined bare of minerals? There's no bottleneck on the quantity of minerals, and yet the price of minerals hasn't completely devalued to nothingness.

The bottleneck is the people willing to mine them.

Is there a reason why the same cannot be true for Data sites?
Cade Windstalker
#16 - 2017-04-27 12:56:09 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you don't create a bottleneck, then the market will get flooded and the value of the data site will crash back down after an initial rush.

Is New Eden being completely mined bare of minerals? There's no bottleneck on the quantity of minerals, and yet the price of minerals hasn't completely devalued to nothingness.

The bottleneck is the people willing to mine them.

Is there a reason why the same cannot be true for Data sites?


Oh gods, the bad economics, it burns...

So, without commenting on specific cases, this is incorrect. A bottleneck doesn't have anything to do with the total quantity of minerals mined beyond whether or not the playerbase can use them and there is sufficient demand.

A bottleneck is all about relative quantities. For example right now if you mine out 200 Colossal Ore Anomalies in Null Sec (arbitrary numbers here people) and use it to build Capital Ships you'll end up with an excess of everything except Mexallon. That's because Mexallon is the bottleneck for capital production. It's the resource that restricts how many capitals you can build.

Now, I don't quite agree with Frostys that something *needs* a bottleneck resource to be profitable, it just needs the things being found to be consumed in sufficient quantities to keep up demand. What a Bottleneck creates is a localized focus of demand where one item out of everything in a basket of goods except that item ends up with a surplus so that one item holds most of the value in the basket. We saw this for a long time with Salvage though things have evened out somewhat since then due to shifts in drop rates, consumption, and player salvage-producing behavior.

Make sense?
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#17 - 2017-04-27 22:58:33 UTC
Why won't the bottleneck be the people doing the resource collecting, not the resoursce itself?
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#18 - 2017-04-28 02:28:35 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Change the build requirements of pirate ships to include the components from the old Data Interface objects.

Have the components only drop from Data sites.

Boom. Data sites worth something now. Pirate battleship proliferation ends. No need to devalue other blueprints, or add magic blue loot.

That's what I have suggested in the past as well. These components are already being used in COSMOS items but no one uses these items by comparison. I leave these components behind all the time because they only take space in hangars without adding any value and add worthless clutter. In my opinion, this is a very elegant solution: It does not require the addition of new items, it reuses existing items, it does not require a change to loot tables and it marginally to significantly increases pirate ship prices which are too cheap anyways.

For a pilot, this is because most of the Cosmos items are roughly at T2 power with somewhat lower skill and fitting requirements, and cost over 10 times as much once scarcity of components has its say.

A signature :o
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#19 - 2017-04-28 05:56:41 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
For a pilot, this is because most of the Cosmos items are roughly at T2 power with somewhat lower skill and fitting requirements, and cost over 10 times as much once scarcity of components has its say.

This price increase is because of the blueprints and the special extinct races (Yan Jung, etc) and special pirate components (Serpentis Basic Target Guider, etc), not because of the regularly dropping data site components (Armor Blocks, Second Hand Parts, etc) that used to be used for the production of Data Interfaces. This thread is about the latter, not the former two.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.