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Specialized industrial ships and alpha clone attempt #2.
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Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-04-23 22:38:10 UTC
Get some new thoughts on the subject I already presented in older thread.

To repeat. I find it quite unfair that speaking of alpha clone, one race has so huge advantage over others in hauling. Yes I mean Gallente and their Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos.

I propose several options what to do to balance this fact.

1) Enable specialized idustrial ships to all races. Either remove the Gallente Industrial (or Minmatar ndustrial) from these ship prerequisities to fly them. Making them ORE would need a lore-wise graphic re-design and making them special edition doesn't make a sense with the availability of blueprints. Then perhaps replace it with a new skill Special Industrials or just keep them fly-able with Spaceship Command only.

2) Or give Caldari and Amarr as a compensation for lack of specialized industrial higher level of the racial Industrial skill that is to 2.

3) Or even better, create a new set of specialized ships. Give Caldari a ship with specialized cargohold that can carry NPC commodities (makes sense lore-wise as caldari are traders). And for Amarr, Slaver Transporter Twisted. Industrial ship with specialized cargohold that can carry slaves, slavers, freed-slaves (so we can enslave them again), militants, exotic dancersm, janitors etc. etc.

4) or sight... remove alpha clones the possibility to fly specialized ships all together so we dont have to envy gallenteans or create gallente alts...
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#2 - 2017-04-23 22:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Well, in principle I agree that the industrial ships non-Gallente should at least have the same line up, however you get 3 clones, one should be Gallente if you want it now, my alphas are Minmatar but I have one Gallente, anything I need to move that requires a Gallente industrial specialization I just contract it to my alt.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-04-23 23:11:00 UTC
As was stated in a similar thread, make all specialized hills require racial industrial 2. Which would bar alpha clones from fly them at all.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-04-23 23:16:11 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Well, in principle I agree that the industrial ships non-Gallente should at least have the same line up, however you get 3 clones, one should be Gallente if you want it now, my alphas are Minmatar but I have one Gallente, anything I need to move that requires a Gallente industrial specialization I just contract it to my alt.

Sure I have gallente alt to workaround this. Actually gallente is my first character on another account and this character was second - the only reason I made it Amarr was roleplay and cool character appearance. I was about to be a big slaver Twisted

I started this character pre ascension. It used to be omega at some point too. But now after so many time I spend with this character in trading and hauling it came to the point I have no use for it since I need the flexibiity. If this character is to be for hauling/trading, its pointless to be in Amarr because without Omega the difference in load of Bestower/Sigil over Nereus/Iteron Mark is insignificant anyway.

Anyway - do we really want to use alt for everything in this game? I for one dislike the need to have alts, alt for hauling alt for scouting, alt for trading in jita, alt in neut corp to haul under wardec, alt in enemy corp to know whats going on and so on and so on...
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#5 - 2017-04-24 08:26:18 UTC
I've suggested in the past that the specialized haulers could be moved to Ore but believe the restriction is more perceptual than actual.

Alphas can't do PI so not having access to the Epithal is a minor limitation.

Practically every Citadel in the game can compress ore free of charge. The basic haulers of any race are more than adequate for hauling that.

As Amarr, you can fly the Bestower which can be fit to carry over 40,000 M3 of cargo - probably a bit less with Alpha skills but I don't think lack of the specialized industrials is all that limiting.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2017-04-24 08:35:35 UTC
I'd rather bring back the iterons and leave them as they were along with the rest of the eindustrials for tier 1.
They didn't need to be changed to their current form.
Make a new industrial and split up some of those roles to other races with some new ones for a new hull.
The standard industrials are mini freighters for people who can't afford to get big ones.
And the new special racial industrials keep the races distinct with different capabilities like we used d to have before tiericide and every ship became a clone of each other.

Gallente keep the miasmos or somethog, iteron 1-5 are just there
Amarr get kryos, with new amarr hull. Caldari get one of the others with new caldari hull.
Etc etc the epithal is neutral because it's pi and goes to a new hull for ore.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2017-04-24 10:45:23 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
As was stated in a similar thread, make all specialized hills require racial industrial 2. Which would bar alpha clones from fly them at all.

^^^^

Short of deleting them completely. This.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#8 - 2017-04-24 10:54:12 UTC
The specialized haulers are more about just pure convenience than anything else. Any racial industrial ship is able to haul any of those materials with similar quantities.

Wormholer for life.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2017-04-24 11:29:34 UTC
Alpha clones are free right?

It costs nothing to create a Gallente one.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#10 - 2017-04-24 11:34:25 UTC
I'm not seeing where it is at all important that free clones get a balance pass.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#11 - 2017-04-24 12:48:49 UTC
As we said in the last topic on this.

NO.


No it does not matter that you want haulers and would find them more useful, others would find being able to fly all T1 haulers worthless. Once CCP starts down the path of granting previously restricted ships to the alpha characters where and when does it stop? If they grant you access to the haulers what grounds would they have for preventing alpha from flying all races BC, BS or for that matter any of the T2 or T3 ships?
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#12 - 2017-04-24 15:48:50 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
As we said in the last topic on this.

NO.


No it does not matter that you want haulers and would find them more useful, others would find being able to fly all T1 haulers worthless. Once CCP starts down the path of granting previously restricted ships to the alpha characters where and when does it stop? If they grant you access to the haulers what grounds would they have for preventing alpha from flying all races BC, BS or for that matter any of the T2 or T3 ships?

Did you stopped readng at first paragraph? That was only one of four suggestions and no matter which of them were chosen I would be satisfied with it. Personally I think that introducing new caldari and amarr specialized haulers would be very exciting but thats way too much work than to change the skill restriction (one way or another).

I understand you do not like the idea that all alpha clones would be able to fly all specialized industrials. But if you want to reply to the post please next time you do that do not cherry pick one of the presented options and reply to all of them. Thank you.
Cade Windstalker
#13 - 2017-04-24 18:11:25 UTC
I'm just going to throw out there that your idea will be taken better OP if you treat others respectfully, no matter how much they're trolling or not showing you the same courtesy.

@Donnachadh, arguing that starting down a slippery slope necessitates reaching the end of it is a logical fallacy and not a good counter argument. The OP has brought up a reasonable imbalance between the racial alpha clones. Things like this can be handled on a case by case basis, and this is just that one case.
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-04-24 18:16:22 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
As we said in the last topic on this.

NO.


No it does not matter that you want haulers and would find them more useful, others would find being able to fly all T1 haulers worthless. Once CCP starts down the path of granting previously restricted ships to the alpha characters where and when does it stop? If they grant you access to the haulers what grounds would they have for preventing alpha from flying all races BC, BS or for that matter any of the T2 or T3 ships?

Did you stopped readng at first paragraph? That was only one of four suggestions and no matter which of them were chosen I would be satisfied with it. Personally I think that introducing new caldari and amarr specialized haulers would be very exciting but thats way too much work than to change the skill restriction (one way or another).

I understand you do not like the idea that all alpha clones would be able to fly all specialized industrials. But if you want to reply to the post please next time you do that do not cherry pick one of the presented options and reply to all of them. Thank you.

Of course they stopped at the first paragraph. Many people don't even make it past the subject line...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2017-04-24 19:17:03 UTC
grgjegb gergerg wrote:
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
As we said in the last topic on this.

NO.


No it does not matter that you want haulers and would find them more useful, others would find being able to fly all T1 haulers worthless. Once CCP starts down the path of granting previously restricted ships to the alpha characters where and when does it stop? If they grant you access to the haulers what grounds would they have for preventing alpha from flying all races BC, BS or for that matter any of the T2 or T3 ships?

Did you stopped readng at first paragraph? That was only one of four suggestions and no matter which of them were chosen I would be satisfied with it. Personally I think that introducing new caldari and amarr specialized haulers would be very exciting but thats way too much work than to change the skill restriction (one way or another).

I understand you do not like the idea that all alpha clones would be able to fly all specialized industrials. But if you want to reply to the post please next time you do that do not cherry pick one of the presented options and reply to all of them. Thank you.

Of course they stopped at the first paragraph. Many people don't even make it past the subject line...


Mostly because it's clear from the subject line that the whole idea is essentially a "give more stuff for free" whine.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#16 - 2017-04-24 19:27:31 UTC
Wander Priam wrote:

The specialized haulers are more about just pure convenience than anything else. Any racial industrial ship is able to haul any of those materials with similar quantities.

Fully cargohold-fitted large t1 industrial would be able to haul half the stuff a specialized industrial can, have 0 ehp, 0 warp stabs, 10+ align time and basically be crying please alpha me with your trasher.

I really hope you are not seriously suggesting to haul stuff in such ship. That just asks for being deleted by high-sec ganker and you know it.
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mostly because it's clear from the subject line that the whole idea is essentially a "give more stuff for free" whine.

That makes no sense you know.

Miasmos, Kryos, Epithal (and Hoarder) are free already. But you have to start as Gallente or use gallente alt anytime you want to efficiently haul this stuff. It is not so problematic to do that. Creating alt is free and allowed, transfering the stuff between characters costs 10.000isk also no problem. But its not right one faction has so big advantage over others in this activity.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2017-04-24 19:35:30 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:

Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mostly because it's clear from the subject line that the whole idea is essentially a "give more stuff for free" whine.

That makes no sense you know.

Miasmos, Kryos, Epithal (and Hoarder) are free already. But you have to start as Gallente or use gallente alt anytime you want to efficiently haul this stuff. It is not so problematic to do that. Creating alt is free and allowed, transfering the stuff between characters costs 10.000isk also no problem. But its not right one faction has so big advantage over others in this activity.


Nobody ever said alpha were supposed to be balanced. If you need more options than alpha provides you, the solution is to go omega.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2017-04-24 20:02:52 UTC
1: ORE has gallente origins if I remember correctly, so making them buy the license of the Miasmos and Kryos seems kind of logical, and would fit the lore too. The Epithal... sure, they can take it too. This would also force the gallente engineers to finally fix the blueprint of the Occator to use the Itreon V instead, as it should.
Also, since we will get Concord Aerospace as another completely neutral faction, they could buy the license of the Hoarder, which also can be logical. The police wouldn't want people running around uncontrolled with a ridiculous amount of ammo anyways.

2: I don't think that would be a real compensation.

3: Sorry, but these ships are totally useless.

4: This is basically option #1 on my list. I think alphas don't need and shouldn't be allowed to fly special haulers, especially if this creates a situation the industrialists can exploit easily. Collecting a lot of resources and hauling them for free? An orca can be replaced by five, 1 day old alpha clones in Miasmoses, if you only care about transporting the ore. This doesn't seem fair to me.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#19 - 2017-04-24 20:30:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Nobody ever said alpha were supposed to be balanced. If you need more options than alpha provides you, the solution is to go omega.

Regardless of the alpha argument, this is an inbalance in the value between the industrial skills as well, and the specialised haulers should be fixed to no longer be imbalanced.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#20 - 2017-04-25 00:46:06 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
4: This is basically option #1 on my list. I think alphas don't need and shouldn't be allowed to fly special haulers, especially if this creates a situation the industrialists can exploit easily. Collecting a lot of resources and hauling them for free? An orca can be replaced by five, 1 day old alpha clones in Miasmoses, if you only care about transporting the ore. This doesn't seem fair to me.

Thats probably true. As alpha character hauling any significant large ammount of goods is always problematic because of the trade-off between cargohold rigs/low slots and agility/defense. Specialized industrials have no such disadvantage. I can fit them to be agile and tanky while stil able to transport three times more cargo that would otherwise t1 nonspecialized industrial be able to. Sure you can transport only one specific goods be it ore, minerals or PI but when you want to transport such stuff, specialized industrials are invaluable and for alpha clone possibly overpowered.
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