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More restrictions to the criminals.
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Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-04-23 21:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
It is really annoying how easy suicide ganking is and that it has basically no consequences. Its basically a zero risk activity, the worst that can happen is that you do your math wrong and don't bring enough alts to destroy your target or you will be unlucky and you don't get any worthy loot (if the purpose of the sucide gank is to make a profit).

I do not care that some players are multiboxing 10+ alts for sucide ganking. I don't care they all attack simultaneously. But I do not think its right that they can live in highsec with -9.9 security status thats just nonsense.

My proposal:

1) Disallow notourious criminals from docking in citadel stations. Force them to require other players or alt or to raise their security status if they want to trade in highsec. If they want to hide they have to use an upwell structure. Following current sec status and high-sec faction police mechanics, -2.0 or lower? forget docking in Jita. -4.5 you won't be able to dock in Uedama. etc.

Alternatively, "notorious criminal" = -5.0 and lower.

2) No rookie/noob ship for criminals. Player docking or respawning with criminal status should not get a free rookie ship in high-sec space stations. Force criminals to obtain frigate/shutle if they want to pull CONCORD from the gank point or to wait the criminal timer and then commit new criminal act before station to do it (and wait 15min more). (Obviously we cannot prevent them for keeping a home station in high-sec so they could respawn there...)

This suggestion probably could use some modifications because its probably not a good idea not to give a ship replacement to the newbie player who somehow attacks someone else in highsec from curiosity/stupidity and become a criminal. Maybe it should apply to "notorious criminals" only.

3) No citadel immunity for notorious criminals and players with criminal status. Force them to be docked in citadel before gank. Not to stay outside pre-aligned already.


This three changes will give high-sec residents higher controll over well known criminals who keep ganking every day. Unless they invest time or ISK to fix their security status they will be banned from stations leaving them the only option of player owned citadels. Citadel owners might decide they dont want to allow well known gankers to operate from their citadel so they ban them from there as well. Result - they will have to get their own citadel. This also can create a player oriented content about "allow gankers to use your citadel or we will wardec you" or "disallow gankers to use your citadel or we wardec you" etc.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2017-04-23 22:04:08 UTC
Roll



@ISD: Can we have a containment thread for these idiots as well as the cloaking ones?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2017-04-23 22:14:55 UTC
Stopped reading when i read the first lie. Couldn't even get past the first line.

Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-04-23 22:22:53 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Stopped reading when i read the first lie. Couldn't even get past the first line.

Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

Just another suicide ganker that will protect his activity by all cost.

I suicide ganked several ships myself. -0.2 sec hit lmao! And my victims didn't even knew that they can activate killright on me - like that would change anything - I fly through highsec almost always with suspect anyway.

Killed bunch a newbies their Leopard for lulz. Got to say it was very hard to do and very expensive too! Big smileBig smileBig smile
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#5 - 2017-04-23 22:51:58 UTC
I am a carebear, however I do agree that the consequences are rather nothing more then a feeble attempt by CCP to make it look like there is some teeth to a paper tiger, the addition of tags that people turn in to gain sec status...bah, there is nothing with teeth.

That being said, there is no growth by the grazers if there is no reason to fear the predator, however the folks who are -9.9 and others are not really predators, they are bored e-warriors, but like all things there must be something for them to stroke themselves over, if you adjust you game play you mostly won't have any issues, if I was a -9.9 I would expect more teeth out of the cops, since its just the way it is now I have no need to play as a criminal because I don't have to learn to survive off the land and meet others because it's not challenging enough to explore the criminal world when you can just buy tags to get back in good with the cops, true criminals would live in the frontier bushwacking folks for survival, lazy gankers...they don't learn anything but rinse and repeat.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#6 - 2017-04-23 23:05:14 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
I am a carebear, however I do agree that the consequences are rather nothing more then a feeble attempt by CCP to make it look like there is some teeth to a paper tiger, the addition of tags that people turn in to gain sec status...bah, there is nothing with teeth.

That being said, there is no growth by the grazers if there is no reason to fear the predator, however the folks who are -9.9 and others are not really predators, they are bored e-warriors, but like all things there must be something for them to stroke themselves over, if you adjust you game play you mostly won't have any issues, if I was a -9.9 I would expect more teeth out of the cops, since its just the way it is now I have no need to play as a criminal because I don't have to learn to survive off the land and meet others because it's not challenging enough to explore the criminal world when you can just buy tags to get back in good with the cops, true criminals would live in the frontier bushwacking folks for survival, lazy gankers...they don't learn anything but rinse and repeat.

thing is they do not even bother buy tags - sure some of them do and if they do, then they will have NO PROBLEM with my suggestions because they won't affect them

But most of them don't do it because they don't have to do it. They stay tethered before citadel pre-aligned on gate they want to gank at and they do not risk faction police to show up and nobody can attack them (but they can attack any possible intruder that would want to try bump them because its their citadel that won't give him the tether). Granted - its their citadel, but its still workaround the intented mechanics of clone soldier tags and security status. Because that would make the continuous suicide ganking much more expensive right?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2017-04-24 00:55:18 UTC
I don't suicide gank. I get ganked.

I just have the honesty to say that ganking is not that common. Its not easy to do well and it's stupidly easy to avoid. The only reason you get ganked is if you ****** up.


But you go right down this path of false accusations, lies and misinformation, and not understanding game mechanics. Every nerf ganking thread has these elements at their centre, so why be different?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2017-04-24 03:53:48 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I am a carebear, however I do agree that the consequences are rather nothing more then a feeble attempt by CCP to make it look like there is some teeth to a paper tiger, the addition of tags that people turn in to gain sec status...bah, there is nothing with teeth.

That being said, there is no growth by the grazers if there is no reason to fear the predator, however the folks who are -9.9 and others are not really predators, they are bored e-warriors, but like all things there must be something for them to stroke themselves over, if you adjust you game play you mostly won't have any issues, if I was a -9.9 I would expect more teeth out of the cops, since its just the way it is now I have no need to play as a criminal because I don't have to learn to survive off the land and meet others because it's not challenging enough to explore the criminal world when you can just buy tags to get back in good with the cops, true criminals would live in the frontier bushwacking folks for survival, lazy gankers...they don't learn anything but rinse and repeat.

thing is they do not even bother buy tags - sure some of them do and if they do, then they will have NO PROBLEM with my suggestions because they won't affect them

But most of them don't do it because they don't have to do it. They stay tethered before citadel pre-aligned on gate they want to gank at and they do not risk faction police to show up and nobody can attack them (but they can attack any possible intruder that would want to try bump them because its their citadel that won't give him the tether). Granted - its their citadel, but its still workaround the intented mechanics of clone soldier tags and security status. Because that would make the continuous suicide ganking much more expensive right?


You could always siege the citadels if you aren't happy about people using it.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9 - 2017-04-24 04:13:49 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You could always siege the citadels if you aren't happy about people using it.


But that would require taking responsibility for their own safety, instead of removing all risk from highsec!
Cybertherion
Doomheim
#10 - 2017-04-24 05:53:41 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I don't suicide gank. I get ganked.

I just have the honesty to say that ganking is not that common. Its not easy to do well and it's stupidly easy to avoid. The only reason you get ganked is if you ****** up.


But you go right down this path of false accusations, lies and misinformation, and not understanding game mechanics. Every nerf ganking thread has these elements at their centre, so why be different?


You wot mate?

I used to frequently deliberately get ganked, then slide into the gankers system and sit in port while they rage around me telling me to undock. I then preceeded with Psi Ops, chattering away about hot bois and how expensive it is to wash my lingerie while the rest of my squad zipped through the system.

Violent knuckledragging types ingame and IRL have weak minds and are easy to manipulate, flood someones head with adrenalin and let their rage blind them. Allowing yourself to be ganked is just them taking the bait. I fail to see why that is a six asterisk up.

I only post here if EvE is offline. Which means my posts are never well timed.

EAT KRABSAK.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#11 - 2017-04-24 07:58:10 UTC
I am also a carebear industrialist. It's over 2 years since I last lost a ship in highsec. I ran a multibox mining fleet in Everyshore for 6 months with no problems. I haul billions through Uedama and Niarja every week. Gankers prey on the weak and the careless. If you factor them into the equation when you choose what, when and where to fly, New Eden is safer than most big cities in the real world. Being human, I expect to make mistakes and an occasional loss is built into my business plan.

Ganking is an important part of the risk/reward balance - destruction means more demand for the stuff I make and risk means less competition.

Learn how to survive as prey instead of asking CCP to remove the predators.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2017-04-24 08:15:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Vokan Narkar wrote:
It is really annoying how easy suicide ganking is and that it has basically no consequences. Its basically a zero risk activity, the worst that can happen is that you do your math wrong and don't bring enough alts to destroy your target or you will be unlucky and you don't get any worthy loot (if the purpose of the sucide gank is to make a profit).

I do not care that some players are multiboxing 10+ alts for sucide ganking. I don't care they all attack simultaneously. But I do not think its right that they can live in highsec with -9.9 security status thats just nonsense.

My proposal:

1) Disallow notourious criminals from docking in citadel stations. Force them to require other players or alt or to raise their security status if they want to trade in highsec. If they want to hide they have to use an upwell structure. Following current sec status and high-sec faction police mechanics, -2.0 or lower? forget docking in Jita. -4.5 you won't be able to dock in Uedama. etc.

Alternatively, "notorious criminal" = -5.0 and lower.

2) No rookie/noob ship for criminals. Player docking or respawning with criminal status should not get a free rookie ship in high-sec space stations. Force criminals to obtain frigate/shutle if they want to pull CONCORD from the gank point or to wait the criminal timer and then commit new criminal act before station to do it (and wait 15min more). (Obviously we cannot prevent them for keeping a home station in high-sec so they could respawn there...)

This suggestion probably could use some modifications because its probably not a good idea not to give a ship replacement to the newbie player who somehow attacks someone else in highsec from curiosity/stupidity and become a criminal. Maybe it should apply to "notorious criminals" only.

3) No citadel immunity for notorious criminals and players with criminal status. Force them to be docked in citadel before gank. Not to stay outside pre-aligned already.


This three changes will give high-sec residents higher controll over well known criminals who keep ganking every day. Unless they invest time or ISK to fix their security status they will be banned from stations leaving them the only option of player owned citadels. Citadel owners might decide they dont want to allow well known gankers to operate from their citadel so they ban them from there as well. Result - they will have to get their own citadel. This also can create a player oriented content about "allow gankers to use your citadel or we will wardec you" or "disallow gankers to use your citadel or we wardec you" etc.


Holy crap....

I should start a Suicide Ganking Collection thread like I did with AFK cloaking...and then after ISD locks it an a year later they'll create a sticky for these shiptoasts.

Look, suicide ganking is the fault of the pilot who is ganked. The large rewards are created by the terrible player who put way too much cargo value in his cargo hold.

Yes. It is that simple. Stop overloading your freighter and you'll largely be fine. No. Really. Stop being bad and you'll be fine.

Roll

Edit:

Here was my thread on why the risk and rewards of suicide ganking are not something CCP should even be thinking about.

I'll go nice and slow with small for the dim witted here....

1. A player puts, say, 7 billion ISK worth of cargo into his charon.
2. To get it all in there he "anti-tanks" his charon by putting on cargo expanders.
3. He then undocks.
4. Flies through Uedama or Niarja or both.
5. Gets bumped and ganked.

The risk is entirely the fault of the charon pilot/player. He put way too much cargo value into his hold. Based on game mechanics about half should drop or about 3.5 billion ISK. Given that it takes about 240 million ISK in catalysts to burn down a charon that is anti-tanked the idiot charon pilot took on considerable risk. He put in his cargo hold almost 15 times the value of the ships needed to kill his charon. He was imprudent. He was a fool. He was asking to be ganked.

Now had our foolish and imprudent charon pilot instead put on reinforced bulkheads and put in only 1 billion ISK worth of cargo he'd hardly be worth ganking. Make it 900 million and he'd be completely uneconomical in regards to ganking. Might he be ganked? Sure. Sometimes people just gank for ***** and giggles. Not much you can do about that besides using a scout and a webber.

But the point is. The risk/reward aspect of freighter ganking is due completely and totally to idiotic freighter pilots. Stop being idiotic and stop getting ganked.

Edit II:L Sorry I used the word imprudent...that might cause some confusion among some of those who are upset by freighter ganking. Imprudent means you took a big chance and it is likely to blow up in your face. Another term for it could be stupid.

Don't be stupid and don't get ganked.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2017-04-24 08:31:06 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
I am a carebear, however I do agree that the consequences are rather nothing more then a feeble attempt by CCP to make it look like there is some teeth to a paper tiger, the addition of tags that people turn in to gain sec status...bah, there is nothing with teeth.

That being said, there is no growth by the grazers if there is no reason to fear the predator, however the folks who are -9.9 and others are not really predators, they are bored e-warriors, but like all things there must be something for them to stroke themselves over, if you adjust you game play you mostly won't have any issues, if I was a -9.9 I would expect more teeth out of the cops, since its just the way it is now I have no need to play as a criminal because I don't have to learn to survive off the land and meet others because it's not challenging enough to explore the criminal world when you can just buy tags to get back in good with the cops, true criminals would live in the frontier bushwacking folks for survival, lazy gankers...they don't learn anything but rinse and repeat.


You have it wrong.

This is NOT an issue CCP should even be looking at, talking about, considering or anything else.

The risk and reward are entirely based on player actions. A stupid idiotic player puts way too much cargo value into his ship and it is then blown up by suicide gankers. The solution is obvious: don't be a stupid idiotic player.

You're welcome.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2017-04-24 08:33:46 UTC
Do Little wrote:
I am also a carebear industrialist. It's over 2 years since I last lost a ship in highsec. I ran a multibox mining fleet in Everyshore for 6 months with no problems. I haul billions through Uedama and Niarja every week. Gankers prey on the weak and the careless. If you factor them into the equation when you choose what, when and where to fly, New Eden is safer than most big cities in the real world. Being human, I expect to make mistakes and an occasional loss is built into my business plan.

Ganking is an important part of the risk/reward balance - destruction means more demand for the stuff I make and risk means less competition.

Learn how to survive as prey instead of asking CCP to remove the predators.


This man gets it. This man will beat the rest of you carebears every single time.

In fact, he is NOT a carebear. He realizes the nature of this game and takes the necessary steps to maximize his chances for success. And as a result he is not here whining for CCP to pat his poo-poo.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Juss Karbuss
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2017-04-24 08:42:39 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

/snip

But the point is. The risk/reward aspect of freighter ganking is due completely and totally to idiotic freighter pilots. Stop being idiotic and stop getting ganked.

Edit II:L Sorry I used the word imprudent...that might cause some confusion among some of those who are upset by freighter ganking. Imprudent means you took a big chance and it is likely to blow up in your face. Another term for it could be stupid.

Don't be stupid and don't get ganked.


That is all true, but that all doesn't change the fact, that there is basically no risk involved for suicide gankers for so high rewards. Two completely different topics.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#16 - 2017-04-24 08:45:48 UTC
Other than the bumping part I completely agree. Getting Bumped, especially for extended periods of time, should either count as aggression or not affect warping.

Getting caught and killed is EVE working as intended.

Yes, it happens because it's easy and because the consequences are things that people that play that way don't care about. You make it even easier when you load lots of value into your ship and decide to make it easier to kill and then go without escort.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2017-04-24 08:47:42 UTC
Juss Karbuss wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

/snip

But the point is. The risk/reward aspect of freighter ganking is due completely and totally to idiotic freighter pilots. Stop being idiotic and stop getting ganked.

Edit II:L Sorry I used the word imprudent...that might cause some confusion among some of those who are upset by freighter ganking. Imprudent means you took a big chance and it is likely to blow up in your face. Another term for it could be stupid.

Don't be stupid and don't get ganked.


That is all true, but that all doesn't change the fact, that there is basically no risk involved for suicide gankers for so high rewards. Two completely different topics.


Of course there is no substantial risk because of the idiotic freighter pilot. He created the disproportionate reward for the given risk. If he weren't an idiot, there'd be now discussion right now. None.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2017-04-24 08:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Other than the bumping part I completely agree. Getting Bumped, especially for extended periods of time, should either count as aggression or not affect warping.

Getting caught and killed is EVE working as intended.

Yes, it happens because it's easy and because the consequences are things that people that play that way don't care about. You make it even easier when you load lots of value into your ship and decide to make it easier to kill and then go without escort.


You only get bumped if you are a complete and total idiot. If you put 750 million ISK of cargo value in your charon with reinforced bulkheads guess what: YOU WON'T GET GODDAMNED BUMPED.

Or if you do, just log off. They won't gank you they are hoping to ransom you. But with 750 million ISK in cargo value, at most 375 million can drop. Given that the gankers will need about 500 million to gank you...it is not an economically viable gank.

Or let me put it this way: If you are getting bumped you likely made a number of dumb moves and deserve what is coming.

Bottomline: Don't be dumb and you'll be fine.

Good rule for life in general too.

Edit: Oh and if that 750 million is in one stack or one freight can...guess what either it will all drop or none at all. Want to increase the risk for suicide gankers, create courier contracts with a cheap alt. There are plenty of suicide ganks where the item did not drop--i.e. the gankers got nothing and lost their ships.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2017-04-24 08:57:28 UTC
To be clear here....

Risk is not something imposed by CCP. Risk is imposed by other players.

Yes.

Risk is imposed by other players.

If you screw up, other players may be ready to pounce and push in your poop.

Jump instead of bridge....that is on you. You screwed up.

But deadspace mods on your CNR and get ganked, you were dumb and created a situation ripe for a suicide gank.

Put 6.8 billion ISK into your obelisk? Yeah, you just created a gank opportunity.

In fact, putting 6.8 billion ISK into your freigher says the following, "I love risk. I love it and I find it exciting and thrilling!!!" When you get ganked after doing this a few times...WITF are you here on the forums complaining? You got what you asked for.

Be prudent. Be smart. And you won't get bumped and you won't get suicide ganked.*

*Aside from getting ganked for ***** and giggles.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#20 - 2017-04-24 09:06:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Other than the bumping part I completely agree. Getting Bumped, especially for extended periods of time, should either count as aggression or not affect warping.

Getting caught and killed is EVE working as intended.

Yes, it happens because it's easy and because the consequences are things that people that play that way don't care about. You make it even easier when you load lots of value into your ship and decide to make it easier to kill and then go without escort.


You only get bumped if you are a complete and total idiot. If you put 750 million ISK of cargo value in your charon with reinforced bulkheads guess what: YOU WON'T GET GODDAMNED BUMPED.

Or if you do, just log off. They won't gank you they are hoping to ransom you. But with 750 million ISK in cargo value, at most 375 million can drop. Given that the gankers will need about 500 million to gank you...it is not an economically viable gank.

Or let me put it this way: If you are getting bumped you likely made a number of dumb moves and deserve what is coming.

Bottomline: Don't be dumb and you'll be fine.

Good rule for life in general too.

Edit: Oh and if that 750 million is in one stack or one freight can...guess what either it will all drop or none at all. Want to increase the risk for suicide gankers, create courier contracts with a cheap alt. There are plenty of suicide ganks where the item did not drop--i.e. the gankers got nothing and lost their ships.



Eh, you still might get bumped even with an empty cargohold. You know this. It's less likely, but it happens.

Regardless, the only reason you are getting bumped instead of disrupted or scrambled is because those things would trigger Concord. It's stupid that it effects warping, more stupid that it's allowed to circumvent the rules of hisec. Kill them if you want, but do it in a way consistent with the rules. 'Emergent' isn't synonymous with 'Good'.

But that's really a digression from the main point, which indeed was don't be an idiot about how you move valuable cargo around and then be upset that you got caught and killed.
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