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Stop CCP from killing the PVP Drake

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Ramadawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-01-20 01:08:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramadawn
The following is an excerpt from the December 2011 meeting minutes:

The Drake: The CSM and CCP both acknowledged the need to rebalance the Drake, "which does everything to well". CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like a Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinertic bonus and instead gain a rate of fire bonus and a missile velocity bonus. The CSM vehemently approved of this idea.

Now having read this, I would like you to consider the following:

Source: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 115829
2 Tengu 82773
3 Maelstrom 81285
4 Hurricane 68436
5 Abaddon 46578
6 Armageddon 40771
7 Tornado 29248
8 Scimitar 23814
9 Tempest 23289
10 Zealot 19149
11 Sabre 19109
12 Huginn 15705
13 Cynabal 14129
14 Loki 13117
15 Hound 12738
16 Manticore 12289
17 Vagabond 12086
18 Lachesis 11781
19 Rapier 11759
20 Rifter 11226

Now consider the Following:

1. 13 of the Ships on this list are Minamatar

2. 3 of the ships on this list are Caldari

3. Of the Caldari ships on this list one ONE is Tech 1

Here is Objective clear proof that Minmatar ships are over powered in PVP and yet, you want to nerf the DRAKE?

How about you start nerfing Minmatar ships? (At what point did fast moving, high DPS ships with ,great range and a choice of damage types seem like a GOOD idea in terms of ship balance?)

And while you’re at it, lets get some Gallente ships on this list can we. Seriously ONE ships in spot number 18 and that’s ONLY there because it can warp disrupt at ranges no other ship can.

(At what point did slow moving ships with short range guns and limited damage types seem like as good idea for ship balance?)

Lets look at the Drake compared to other BCs:

- Yes the drake has a very nice tank. So does the myrmidon. In fact the myrmidon’s tank is better.

- Yes the drake has a better tank than some Battleships. But the Hurricane can do more DPS than some Battleships. And with the introduction of the Tornado you now have two amazing DPS Battle Cruisers that do MORE damage than some BC’s. BOTH of which are minmatar and BOTH of which are on this list. And yet strangely enough neither ONE of these ships are being nerfed.

-The drake’s DPS ranges around 2/3’s as much DPS as a Hurricane. This combined with the Hurricane’s better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS) combines with a Tank that isn’t THAT bad, means the two ships are a pretty even match.

- As such, I would guess that the only reason why the Hurricane is at rank 4 and the Drake is at rank 1 is that besides the Hurricane, Minmatar pilots have a lot of OTHER great choices for pure combat ships; while Caldari Pilots have well the DRAKE.

Now lets consider the bonuses they want to give the Drake.

Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.

You know what CCP and vaunted CSM?
Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK that’s why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper can’t get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.

In short these changes will take the drake from the top of this list to the bottom of it.

Finally the Drake is NOT a ship without significant weaknesses (unlike the minmater).

It’s slow (making it easier to catch),
and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).

These weakness are easily as significant as it’s strengths. (unlike minmater ships)

So in summary

LEAVE THE DRAKE ALONG.

Don’t fix what’s NOT broken

Fix whats actually broken
Fournone
Pyromaniacs Anonymous
#2 - 2012-01-23 02:40:26 UTC
The only thing going for the drake is its tank. And its dps is pretty pathetic which balances the ship well. If they remove the 5% damage restistance bonus, the drake will be a goner. Sure it can do lvl 4s if you tank it right, but it takes so horribly long to do them its not even worth it.

The second the drake losses that 5% bonus to tank (which amounts to alot more than people think), the hurricane will dominate the list.
Jade Mitch
A Problem with Authority
#3 - 2012-01-23 04:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Mitch
Excellent topic, you really nailed it! My alt was specifically created to be a Drake pilot. These changes to the Drake will be disastrous.

When they make changes like this, it often ruins our skill sets and we deserve compensation for that. But rather than some kind of refund or freebie, I support the idea of being able to unlearning SP and saving them to a pool that is shared by all the chars on my account.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#4 - 2012-01-23 05:07:07 UTC
What there is a gallente ship for once?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Jon Marburg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-01-23 08:37:21 UTC
I'd worry about getting caldari and gallente ship usage in line with minmatar and amarr before you start looking to nerf them.
Valei Khurelem
#6 - 2012-01-23 08:54:01 UTC
You know, I just had a thought, if EVE is all about skill, then why do they need to nerf the Drake?

CSM needs to stop with the bullshit and admit there is something wrong with this game.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-01-23 09:06:19 UTC
Ramadawn wrote:
The following is an excerpt from the December 2011 meeting minutes:

The Drake: The CSM and CCP both acknowledged the need to rebalance the Drake, "which does everything to well". CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like a Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinertic bonus and instead gain a rate of fire bonus and a missile velocity bonus. The CSM vehemently approved of this idea.

Now having read this, I would like you to consider the following:


Ramadawn wrote:
How about you start nerfing Minmatar ships? (At what point did fast moving, high DPS ships with ,great range and a choice of damage types seem like a GOOD idea in terms of ship balance?)
Sigras
Conglomo
#8 - 2012-01-23 11:18:15 UTC
doesnt that just mean that they need to buff the rest of the caldari ships when they nerf the totally overpowered drake?
Vizvayu Koga
#9 - 2012-01-23 12:48:00 UTC
I'm sorry but I don't agree. IMO they should not only nerf the Drake, but also the Tengu, Mael and Hurricane as well. Having so many people using those ships means they're unbalanced. Of course this change alone won't do, they need to buff other ships too to make them more usable, like most T1 frigs (except rifters) and cruisers.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2012-01-23 13:04:32 UTC
Good thing that they're not nerfing it or kililng it for PvP, then.

They're doing the exact opposite: they're honing it for PvP by giving it better damage output and projection, while scaling down its tank a bit to compensate for this significant offensive buff.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2012-01-23 13:08:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Good thing that they're not nerfing it or kililng it for PvP, then.

They're doing the exact opposite: they're honing it for PvP by giving it better damage output and projection, while scaling down its tank a bit to compensate for this significant offensive buff.


This. Velocity bonus and blanket RoF bonus would make the HAM drake a really nice kiting boat that can put out DPS quite well.

BUT OH GOD THE RESIST BONUS WILL BE GONE? HOW WILL IT SURVIVE???
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#12 - 2012-01-23 13:35:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Good thing that they're not nerfing it or kililng it for PvP, then.

They're doing the exact opposite: they're honing it for PvP by giving it better damage output and projection, while scaling down its tank a bit to compensate for this significant offensive buff.


Yes, because what pvp needs is more ships that shoot from 100km away.

The CSM said they want the drake to be more like the caracal and raven. The caracal and raven are terrible.

The reason people fly drakes is that people skill for caldari for pve (despite the maelstrom being loads better than the raven for level 4s) and the drake, tengu and (ugh) falcon are pretty much the only caldari ships worth flying. (Nighthawk too, but its pretty much just an expensive drake).
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2012-01-23 14:43:05 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
The CSM said they want the drake to be more like the caracal and raven. The caracal and raven are terrible.
...for a few reasons that don't apply to the Drake, especially not in its new buffed state (should the buff actually go through). What they mean is that they want the Drake to be focused rather than a jack-of-all-trades. As it happens, focusing it will give a very nice buff and will very specifically make it not suck in the ways the Caracal and Raven suck.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2012-01-23 15:17:47 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:


The reason people fly drakes is that people skill for caldari for pve (despite the maelstrom being loads better than the raven for level 4s) and the drake, tengu and (ugh) falcon are pretty much the only caldari ships worth flying. (Nighthawk too, but its pretty much just an expensive drake).


Bit close minded aren't you? AML caracal is a fun and effective boat. The cerberus isn't the best for sniping but its definitely an option for missile users in a shield hac gang. Vulture is a fantastic fleet ship (shield boosts are good mmkay?). Rook and scorp are great ewar options with the blackbird being a nice beginner/throwaway. Oh and have you met my friend the Rokh? Hes pretty cool now too. Hawk and hookbill are fun as hell in small gangs. Basilisk is amazing for RR with cap buddies and of course the Posprey serves its role nicely. Yeah, drake, tengu and falcon are the only ones worth flying Roll

With the proposed changes the Nighthawk would actually have a different role than the drake, albeit niche but thats okay, it is T2 after all.
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-01-23 15:18:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:

..for a few reasons that don't apply to the Drake, especially not in its new buffed state (should the buff actually go through). What they mean is that they want the Drake to be focused rather than a jack-of-all-trades. As it happens, focusing it will give a very nice buff and will very specifically make it not suck in the ways the Caracal and Raven suck.


This

The caracal sucks because of its terrible fitting room, and the raven sucks because it cant apply its DPS very well, the new drake will have neither of these issues
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-01-23 16:14:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Suck it up. The Drake is now on-par with the other BCs in terms of tank, but now actually has an easier time slinging missiles at longer ranges, and has full selectable damage type rather than a choice between kinetic and LOLDPS.

Hopefully the Hurricane will be the next to receive the nerfbat, along with autocannons in general.

Quote:
The caracal sucks because of its terrible fitting room, and the raven sucks because it cant apply its DPS very well, the new drake will have neither of these issues

This. The Caracal is basically broken for anything but frigate shooting (and let's face it, dozens of ships can do that just fine) because it has awful power grid.

The Raven is poor for PVP mostly because battleship missiles aren't in a great state right now, and the fact it really needs another mid.


Basically, if you think this change will kill the Drake, then you're either an idiot or need to try training your skills past 1 sometime.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#17 - 2012-01-23 16:29:33 UTC
Ramadawn wrote:
Source: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 115829
2 Tengu 82773
3 Maelstrom 81285
4 Hurricane 68436
5 Abaddon 46578
6 Armageddon 40771
7 Tornado 29248
8 Scimitar 23814
9 Tempest 23289
10 Zealot 19149
11 Sabre 19109
12 Huginn 15705
13 Cynabal 14129
14 Loki 13117
15 Hound 12738
16 Manticore 12289
17 Vagabond 12086
18 Lachesis 11781
19 Rapier 11759
20 Rifter 11226

Now consider the Following:

1. 13 of the Ships on this list are Minamatar

2. 3 of the ships on this list are Caldari

3. Of the Caldari ships on this list one ONE is Tech 1

Here is Objective clear proof that Minmatar ships are over powered in PVP and yet, you want to nerf the DRAKE?


I tend to agree with the OP, the drake needs to be protected as a ship of choice.

Also, consider that the problem is only partly that the drake is good. This is a trick of perception.

If Minmatar pilots only had one or two ships in the top ten, they would be at the top of the list above the drake.

Caldari pilots need more choices. Gallente pilots need at least one.

Right now, it's like the game has races divided by expected roles. Minmatar is PVP.

If you aren't marketing the game by races having specific roles, these ships are not balanced.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-01-23 16:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
If Minmatar pilots only had one or two ships in the top ten, they would be at the top of the list above the drake.

An excellent point right there.

And the fact is, as anyone with EFT can tell you, the Drake and Hurricane are currently in a tier of their own (with the Drake being significantly better for fleets and the Hurricane for smaller gangs). Just because the Drake is getting nerfed now, doesn't mean the Winmatar won't get what's coming to them next.
Danel Tosh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-01-23 18:19:58 UTC
I personally believe that the drake should be kept as it is.
however it could be benificial to the game if all other ships were buffed to some degree so that they could compete with the drake (and the Hurricane).
-give the brutix more spped and agility
-give the cyclone a dammage bonus to missiles as well as its current bonus to projectiles. (make use of those missile slots)
-give the myrmidon a buff to its drones.
-give the prophecy a real dammage bonus to lasers
-give the harbinger more fitting options.

basicly if other ships were really good doing what they are ment to do (like the drake) then we would see more variety in fleets. drakes will still be king of missile boats and the hurricane the king of projectiles but ofther ships would be able to claim thier own titles more effectively and still be able to compete against eachother.
keep the drake as it is and give other ships an edge.
thats all
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2012-01-23 18:22:40 UTC
Danel Tosh wrote:
I personally believe that the drake should be kept as it is.
however it could be benificial to the game if all other ships were buffed to some degree so that they could compete with the drake (and the Hurricane).
-give the brutix more spped and agility
-give the cyclone a dammage bonus to missiles as well as its current bonus to projectiles. (make use of those missile slots)
-give the myrmidon a buff to its drones.
-give the prophecy a real dammage bonus to lasers
-give the harbinger more fitting options.

basicly if other ships were really good doing what they are ment to do (like the drake) then we would see more variety in fleets. drakes will still be king of missile boats and the hurricane the king of projectiles but ofther ships would be able to claim thier own titles more effectively and still be able to compete against eachother.
keep the drake as it is and give other ships an edge.
thats all


so 5 changes instead of 1 to achieve the same sort of desired balance
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