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Remove Jump Fatigue for Logistics
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2017-04-23 17:57:39 UTC
Why would you need to do that with a jump freighter? Don't they have 90% fatigue reduction anyway? You just wait ~5 minutes until your timer is under 10 mins and jump again.
Yarr Bait
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2017-04-23 18:13:29 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Why would you need to do that with a jump freighter? Don't they have 90% fatigue reduction anyway? You just wait ~5 minutes until your timer is under 10 mins and jump again.


Well, when you're moving an entire corp around, we used to be able to jump at will without waiting. If you jump, say three times in succession (orange timer expires), you have an hour blue timer with a quickly escalating orange timer. Hence, you sit while the timer wears off. Where we used to be able to complete a corp move in a few days, it is now stretching into weeks when we don't have all of our alt-bearing accounts online.

It's positively maddening having to sit around just for some stupid timer to drop.
Cade Windstalker
#23 - 2017-04-23 20:18:12 UTC
Yarr Bait wrote:
Not flatly false ;) I have watched in action more than once. That's how we manage our jump freighters by passing toon to toon. We've jumped the fatigue hurdle a number of times and it's not that hard... but as you say, you do have to move stuff around. It's more painful for the single toon accounts which is where the revenue comes in for CCP. While it may not be logistically feasible to do force projection by handing ships off, it is very easy to do jump freighters and using carriers for logistics... as you have a set path and pre-determined route.

So, maybe false to you... but not for me watching it happen.

Thanks for the input though. I still argue that counter-tactics are the better solution than forcing everyone into fatigue.


The training time for even a maxed out Jump Freighter pilot is a couple of months, the training time for an even halfway competent dread pilot is like 10. Plus you need a lot more of them where as with the setup you're talking about you basically just need to move the pilots when you're setting up the Citadels you're jumping to.

While I don't think that kind of workaround is great, I can't think of a good way around it and I'm not generally in favor of making Logistics people go crazy. After all you can't kill much with a Freighter.

Yarr Bait wrote:
Well, when you're moving an entire corp around, we used to be able to jump at will without waiting. If you jump, say three times in succession (orange timer expires), you have an hour blue timer with a quickly escalating orange timer. Hence, you sit while the timer wears off. Where we used to be able to complete a corp move in a few days, it is now stretching into weeks when we don't have all of our alt-bearing accounts online.

It's positively maddening having to sit around just for some stupid timer to drop.


If this was as easy to get around as you're implying it is this wouldn't be an issue.

While I think everyone agrees that Jump Fatigue isn't an ideal mechanic the alternatives are even less ideal.
Nalena Linova
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2017-04-24 00:27:36 UTC
Yarr Bait wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why would you need to do that with a jump freighter? Don't they have 90% fatigue reduction anyway? You just wait ~5 minutes until your timer is under 10 mins and jump again.


Well, when you're moving an entire corp around, we used to be able to jump at will without waiting. If you jump, say three times in succession (orange timer expires), you have an hour blue timer with a quickly escalating orange timer. Hence, you sit while the timer wears off. Where we used to be able to complete a corp move in a few days, it is now stretching into weeks when we don't have all of our alt-bearing accounts online.

It's positively maddening having to sit around just for some stupid timer to drop.



I didn't realise the School of Applied Knowledge did a lot of whole corp redeployments.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2017-04-24 09:06:33 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
We've been over this so much the horse isn't just fertilizer it's an apple tree.

Jump Fatigue sucks, having people being able to quickly and effortlessly move Capitals around the game sucks worse. No one wants everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from PL or Goons' staging system.

A lot of alternatives have been discussed, every one has either had worse downsides for gameplay or has been fairly easily exploitable to move force around extremely easily.


And besides...go look at Verite's maps before fatiuge and after fatigue....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2017-04-24 12:54:11 UTC
Yarr Bait wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why would you need to do that with a jump freighter? Don't they have 90% fatigue reduction anyway? You just wait ~5 minutes until your timer is under 10 mins and jump again.


Well, when you're moving an entire corp around, we used to be able to jump at will without waiting. If you jump, say three times in succession (orange timer expires), you have an hour blue timer with a quickly escalating orange timer. Hence, you sit while the timer wears off. Where we used to be able to complete a corp move in a few days, it is now stretching into weeks when we don't have all of our alt-bearing accounts online.

It's positively maddening having to sit around just for some stupid timer to drop.


What you used to be able to do is completely irrelevant now. Stop thinking of "what wee used to be able to do" because those time are gone. Returning to this would bring back major problems that finally got nailed when they introduced jump fatigue.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#27 - 2017-04-24 13:25:55 UTC
Yarr Bait wrote:
They should focus just on force projection rather than punishing all of the jump ships in the game. There are far many more uses for a jump drive than to move a "gun" to a battle... Just lazy of CCP. There are far more nails in the coffin than force projection at this point... CCP caving to "pay-to-win", skill injectors and the like...

Oh ye of little understanding, "force" as it is applied to this game and jump fatigue is not restricted to ships with guns or missiles.
In this context "force" is a generic term involving ALL of the ships that may make up a fighting force and they include but are not limited to ships with guns or missiles. Cargo ships of all shapes and sizes used to haul ammo, replacement ships and all manor of other materials needed as well as the logistics ships used to rep the fleet during the battle are ALL part of the "force". So the answer is yes ALL ships need to be affected in one way or another by jump fatigue.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#28 - 2017-04-24 13:45:34 UTC
Yarr Bait wrote:
It's positively maddening having to sit around just for some stupid timer to drop.

Blame those who came before you and abused the hell out of the ability to jump from anywhere to anywhere in EvE in a matter of minutes for your frustration and your time wasted waiting for "some stupid timer" to expire because those players are the ones that brought this on all of us.

On the other hand this is just a game and there are many things far more important you could be doing with that time, things other than sitting around watching "some stupid timer" and getting mad, here is just a partial list of possible options.
Sit with your favorite beverage and read a good book, if you do not know any I am sure there are many others here like me that could recommend more than a few.

Sit with friends and enjoy that beverage and a chance to just talk to one another.

Spend that time helping at a local food bank or other charitable cause that seems worthwhile to you, they can all use the help.

Load up another character and go and do something else instead of staring at timer you cannot do anything about, or perhaps spend the time playing another game or watching a movie.

Yarr Bait wrote:
Well, when you're moving an entire corp around, we used to be able to jump at will without waiting. If you jump, say three times in succession (orange timer expires), you have an hour blue timer with a quickly escalating orange timer. Hence, you sit while the timer wears off. Where we used to be able to complete a corp move in a few days, it is now stretching into weeks when we don't have all of our alt-bearing accounts online.

Thank you for the perfect description of how and why we have jump fatigue. I guess you are one of those we can blame for it being introduced into the game.

On the other hand if you think moving an entire corp while working within the limits of jump fatigue is tough, try moving a 200 character high sec corp with 15 POS, related add on's and more than 5 million units of minerals more then 30 jumps across the EvE universe WITHOUT jump capable ships and then come back and talk to us about how tough it is for you now.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2017-04-24 19:24:21 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Yarr Bait wrote:
It's positively maddening having to sit around just for some stupid timer to drop.

Blame those who came before you and abused the hell out of the ability to jump from anywhere to anywhere in EvE in a matter of minutes for your frustration and your time wasted waiting for "some stupid timer" to expire because those players are the ones that brought this on all of us.



That's a point that is rarely said but very few people complained about jump ranges until it all became 2 empires and caps were used for helicopter dicking on everything everywhere.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2017-04-24 21:35:00 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
We've been over this so much the horse isn't just fertilizer it's an apple tree.

Jump Fatigue sucks, having people being able to quickly and effortlessly move Capitals around the game sucks worse. No one wants everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from PL or Goons' staging system.

A lot of alternatives have been discussed, every one has either had worse downsides for gameplay or has been fairly easily exploitable to move force around extremely easily.

Well..

PL and Goons want everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from their staging system. Everyone else would rather it not...
Cade Windstalker
#31 - 2017-04-25 02:06:45 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
We've been over this so much the horse isn't just fertilizer it's an apple tree.

Jump Fatigue sucks, having people being able to quickly and effortlessly move Capitals around the game sucks worse. No one wants everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from PL or Goons' staging system.

A lot of alternatives have been discussed, every one has either had worse downsides for gameplay or has been fairly easily exploitable to move force around extremely easily.

Well..

PL and Goons want everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from their staging system. Everyone else would rather it not...


Nah, even PL and Goons are generally among the largest proponents of Fatigue these days. I mean, not after a move op, but the rest of the time they love it.

Why? Because it means they can drop stuff without having to worry about Supers from 50 LY away showing up, and rat without dreads showing up in Delve from a fight that just ended 10 minutes ago in Cobalt Edge.

Cap and Super Cap deaths and kills actually both went up after Fatigue, not Down, because suddenly people felt safer both fighting the caps that were dropped on them and dropping caps in the first place.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2017-04-25 21:09:13 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
We've been over this so much the horse isn't just fertilizer it's an apple tree.

Jump Fatigue sucks, having people being able to quickly and effortlessly move Capitals around the game sucks worse. No one wants everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from PL or Goons' staging system.

A lot of alternatives have been discussed, every one has either had worse downsides for gameplay or has been fairly easily exploitable to move force around extremely easily.

Well..

PL and Goons want everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from their staging system. Everyone else would rather it not...


You do realize every goon who posted in this thread don't want fatigue removed right? Stop hating on groups when you don;t even know what their opinion on a subject is.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2017-04-25 21:40:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
We've been over this so much the horse isn't just fertilizer it's an apple tree.

Jump Fatigue sucks, having people being able to quickly and effortlessly move Capitals around the game sucks worse. No one wants everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from PL or Goons' staging system.

A lot of alternatives have been discussed, every one has either had worse downsides for gameplay or has been fairly easily exploitable to move force around extremely easily.

Well..

PL and Goons want everywhere in Eve to be less than 15 minutes away from their staging system. Everyone else would rather it not...


You do realize every goon who posted in this thread don't want fatigue removed right? Stop hating on groups when you don;t even know what their opinion on a subject is.


Sigh.

I was being facetious. One of these days I'll remember that the internet sucks for conveying that.

I'm not saying that PL and Goons (among other large super-capable groups) do not support fatigue. I'm just saying that as the largest groups with the most force to project, they certainly have the ability to leverage no fatigue more than others.
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