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The CSM – Council of Sov. Management.

First post
Author
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#121 - 2017-04-21 03:44:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:


So now I'm changing what I first said. The CSM is now a popularity contest with an Iceland vacation and a gift bag if you win!


That cuts it, I'm running for CSM 13 on the "HTFU you dumb MF'r" party ticket...


Someone got in with "I don't need your pubbie vote" so I'd say you have your chance with "HTFU you dumb MF'r".
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#122 - 2017-04-21 04:25:16 UTC
Several people are saying, if you can't be bothered to vote then why should you be represented, in a game. Is this really a good attitude? Sure it's a HTFU attitude but does it actually work? It can't be good for CCP to be excluding the more casual players as that is what is most common. Voting doesn't take that much work, but it does of course take work, and the more solo a player you are the more personal research you're going to have to do to choose a candidate. It's is far easier to live 'with your head in the sand' as it were, in a game compared to real life. In my RL, I can't get away from people talking about politics, but in my eve gameplay I have only ever heard anything about candidates when my alliance leaders have told me who to vote for. The amount of 'work' drops to next to nothing when you've been told who to vote for.

I think there would be a way to equalise the amount of effort put in to have your voice heard, by using surveys of the entire playerbase. There the only 'work' is answering what you think, and CCP can do the work of compiling and sifting through the data.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Uncle Dunk
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2017-04-21 06:15:00 UTC
Kirell wrote:


3) This is what needs to change most.

Eliminate the high sec ganking of players. It's the new blood that usually suffers the most. but it's also the old blood that is trying to play in high sec to actually get some game time in where they don't have to be on high alert all the time (you know... a lot of us have kids and can't get too involved in things, so mining, ratting hauling etc in high sec at least we get a feel of having some semblance of game time.... When these people get ganked in their haulers, their mining ships or their expensive mission ships....

Since so many of them lose all their belongings to high sec gankers who are mostly just bored, and aren't looking for a return on their gank (just in it to grief/ collect a killmail) they leave and never return. CCP has bled out more players to this than anything else.

The people that do the ganking, sure they would be pissed that griefing people is no longer an option. They might quit. But I bet 99% of them would stay.

You'd also lose fewer people, and you can be damn sure people would come back knowing they can play without being hassled.

but EVE is a Niche game you'll argue....

Sorry no, it isn't. They lost that title a long time ago. Especially after it went FREE TO PLAY.

But we know CCP will not change any of this.

So the outcome will be obvious. There will be those that will hang on simply because of the investment of time in EVE.

But EVE will die down to the point it will be a shadow of it's former self.

I know I'm waiting for that one well known space sim....I'm gone when it comes out.



Lol someone got ganked
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#124 - 2017-04-21 07:06:15 UTC
hmmm, almost sounds like maybe we need some sort of electoral system......

or maybe just make it so there are seats available based on primary areas, Amarr/Caldari/Galente/Minmatar/Anokis(WH spelling myight be wrong)....ok thats 5 seats.

Hmm, now what else do we need......
Nullsec....
1 seat for the North (PureBlind/Tribute/Venal/Deklein/Vale of the Silent/Fade/Branch/Tenal/Geminate)
1 seat for the West (Cloud Ring/Outer RIng/Foutain/Delve/Querious/Period Basis)
1 seat for the Drone Regions(east), (Cobalt Edge/Outer Passage/The Spire/ Etherium Reach/Oasa/The Kalevala Expanse/PerrigenFalls/MalPaise)
1 seat ffor the Southeast (Great Wildlands/Scalding Pass/Insmother/Curse/Wicked Creek/Detroid/Cache)
1 Seat for the South (Providence/Catch/Immensea/Tenerifis/Impass/Omist/Feythabolis/Estoria/Paragon Soul/Stain)

5 nullsec seats, 1 Wh seat, 4 Empire seats........

Then CCP makes it so that your character can only vote for the quadrant it is currently living in when voting for the list of any Candidates for that particular region.


But then again why trade one convoluted mess for another?
Jasmine Deer
Perkone
Caldari State
#125 - 2017-04-21 08:48:32 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
the criminally illiterate are best filtered out by a voting system that requires them to read in order to vote,



says the man who wrote "cuccoon"
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#126 - 2017-04-21 10:19:12 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
hmmm, almost sounds like maybe we need some sort of electoral system......

or maybe just make it so there are seats available based on primary areas, Amarr/Caldari/Galente/Minmatar/Anokis(WH spelling myight be wrong)....ok thats 5 seats.

Hmm, now what else do we need......
Nullsec....
1 seat for the North (PureBlind/Tribute/Venal/Deklein/Vale of the Silent/Fade/Branch/Tenal/Geminate)
1 seat for the West (Cloud Ring/Outer RIng/Foutain/Delve/Querious/Period Basis)
1 seat for the Drone Regions(east), (Cobalt Edge/Outer Passage/The Spire/ Etherium Reach/Oasa/The Kalevala Expanse/PerrigenFalls/MalPaise)
1 seat ffor the Southeast (Great Wildlands/Scalding Pass/Insmother/Curse/Wicked Creek/Detroid/Cache)
1 Seat for the South (Providence/Catch/Immensea/Tenerifis/Impass/Omist/Feythabolis/Estoria/Paragon Soul/Stain)

5 nullsec seats, 1 Wh seat, 4 Empire seats........

Then CCP makes it so that your character can only vote for the quadrant it is currently living in when voting for the list of any Candidates for that particular region.


But then again why trade one convoluted mess for another?


Easily gamed. I cast my characters out to geographically disparate areas, then vote for five people of my own ticket.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#127 - 2017-04-21 10:57:45 UTC
Querns wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
hmmm, almost sounds like maybe we need some sort of electoral system......

or maybe just make it so there are seats available based on primary areas, Amarr/Caldari/Galente/Minmatar/Anokis(WH spelling myight be wrong)....ok thats 5 seats.

Hmm, now what else do we need......
Nullsec....
1 seat for the North (PureBlind/Tribute/Venal/Deklein/Vale of the Silent/Fade/Branch/Tenal/Geminate)
1 seat for the West (Cloud Ring/Outer RIng/Foutain/Delve/Querious/Period Basis)
1 seat for the Drone Regions(east), (Cobalt Edge/Outer Passage/The Spire/ Etherium Reach/Oasa/The Kalevala Expanse/PerrigenFalls/MalPaise)
1 seat ffor the Southeast (Great Wildlands/Scalding Pass/Insmother/Curse/Wicked Creek/Detroid/Cache)
1 Seat for the South (Providence/Catch/Immensea/Tenerifis/Impass/Omist/Feythabolis/Estoria/Paragon Soul/Stain)

5 nullsec seats, 1 Wh seat, 4 Empire seats........

Then CCP makes it so that your character can only vote for the quadrant it is currently living in when voting for the list of any Candidates for that particular region.


But then again why trade one convoluted mess for another?


Easily gamed. I cast my characters out to geographically disparate areas, then vote for five people of my own ticket.


well the thought was not made in all seriousness and i did not expect even a semi-serious reply to it.
So lets explore this 'gaming' you mention?
Do mean your characters can vote all Nullsec if they move to those parts? Because that is what i meant.

actually lets explore what I meant first then you reply to my first question already listed.
3 candidates live in Caldari Empire space (highsec/losec), and run for the Caldari seat...only characters living within Caldari Empire space can vote for those candidates, they also can not cast votes for any other seat.

Same with each and every seat....a Candidate is unable to run for a particular Seat unless they have lived there for the past 90 days prior to placing their 'want to run' on CCP's ballot list. (living means logging and stuff not just being placed there as an AFK and Idle account)

Now if players want to move their characters around to better able vote for the people/organizations, that is fine....then we and CCP would inadvertently get a player/character census too.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#128 - 2017-04-21 12:24:21 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Now if players want to move their characters around to better able vote for the people/organizations, that is fine....then we and CCP would inadvertently get a player/character census too.


The current CSM process already provides an excellent census.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Cade Windstalker
#129 - 2017-04-21 13:40:46 UTC
Querns wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Now if players want to move their characters around to better able vote for the people/organizations, that is fine....then we and CCP would inadvertently get a player/character census too.


The current CSM process already provides an excellent census.


This is a kind of erroneous conclusion to come to and is based entirely on the conclusion that people will only vote for CSM candidates representing the area of space they most frequently play in.

I personally don't think I've ever done this, I've voted for a WH candidate despite not being in WHs at the time. I've voted for various Null candidates belonging to various groups, none of which I was a member of, I've voted for Steve Ronuken despite not being a High Sec industrialist or having more than a causal interest in 3rd party development.

There is absolutely no evidence that the CSM represents any kind of census of player distribution in the game or where those interests lie. Someone could probably write a couple of pages on the lack of statistical validity of using the CSM vote to draw such conclusions.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#130 - 2017-04-21 13:50:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Now if players want to move their characters around to better able vote for the people/organizations, that is fine....then we and CCP would inadvertently get a player/character census too.


The current CSM process already provides an excellent census.


This is a kind of erroneous conclusion to come to and is based entirely on the conclusion that people will only vote for CSM candidates representing the area of space they most frequently play in.

I personally don't think I've ever done this, I've voted for a WH candidate despite not being in WHs at the time. I've voted for various Null candidates belonging to various groups, none of which I was a member of, I've voted for Steve Ronuken despite not being a High Sec industrialist or having more than a causal interest in 3rd party development.

There is absolutely no evidence that the CSM represents any kind of census of player distribution in the game or where those interests lie. Someone could probably write a couple of pages on the lack of statistical validity of using the CSM vote to draw such conclusions.



It's ok Cade, i wrote basically a troll post that i did not really plan nor expect a reply of any seriousness to.
1 guy answered that he could game it.

So I simply asked him how, and provided the context of meaning behind the post, the question is still valid though. How?
and i would also like to know now to what end?
Is that guy really that important to place whatever Candidate he wishes in every quadrant and have him/her win by default?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#131 - 2017-04-21 13:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Max Deveron wrote:

It's ok Cade, i wrote basically a troll post that i did not really plan nor expect a reply of any seriousness to.
1 guy answered that he could game it.

So I simply asked him how, and provided the context of meaning behind the post, the question is still valid though. How?
and i would also like to know now to what end?
Is that guy really that important to place whatever Candidate he wishes in every quadrant and have him/her win by default?


"i was just pretending to be retarded"

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#132 - 2017-04-21 14:03:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:

It's ok Cade, i wrote basically a troll post that i did not really plan nor expect a reply of any seriousness to.
1 guy answered that he could game it.

So I simply asked him how, and provided the context of meaning behind the post, the question is still valid though. How?
and i would also like to know now to what end?
Is that guy really that important to place whatever Candidate he wishes in every quadrant and have him/her win by default?


"i was just pretending to be retarded"



LOL ok, either now you are backpedaling on theoretically discussing a theoretical topic, or as just a Director of Finance somebody higher than you told you to quit your lid. either way, unless you want to actually continue it, this troll discussion of a troll post has pretty much run its course i think.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#133 - 2017-04-21 14:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Max Deveron wrote:
or as just a Director of Finance somebody higher than you told you to quit your lid


You think that anyone in my organization gives a shit what I say on eve-o?

You think that I'm even in leadership in my organization?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2017-04-21 14:23:38 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

This is a kind of erroneous conclusion to come to and is based entirely on the conclusion that people will only vote for CSM candidates representing the area of space they most frequently play in.

I personally don't think I've ever done this, I've voted for a WH candidate despite not being in WHs at the time. I've voted for various Null candidates belonging to various groups, none of which I was a member of, I've voted for Steve Ronuken despite not being a High Sec industrialist or having more than a causal interest in 3rd party development.

There is absolutely no evidence that the CSM represents any kind of census of player distribution in the game or where those interests lie. Someone could probably write a couple of pages on the lack of statistical validity of using the CSM vote to draw such conclusions.

The CSM process offers the strongest incentive to have all alts self-identify what playstyle they most favor. It is blatantly obvious in a game such as EVE that the location of the character is significantly less predictive. Certainly there are ways that the census properties of the CSM could be improved - but it is far and away better than any other metric. It is widely advertised and CCP seeks to get as many people as possible to participate. It has a tangible incentive not to lie: your responses are private and anonymized but have actual effects. And it goes to the person behind the character, so it avoids the trap mechanical measurements of where characters are, what their skills are, and what their frequent activities are where they miss the underlying reality.

I have an npc freighter alt. It does nothing but autopilot packages from point a to point b in empire or, in rare cases, manually pilot them. I have nothing in common with a red frog guy though a mechanical review of the characters would show them as very similar. My NPC alt is simply part of my personal logistics chain, not how I play the game. A red frog's guy is how he plays the game. Many characters in highsec are simply bots that supply someone else: most stats won't tell the difference between someone's L4 missioning bot and some poor guy whose life is so terrible his leisure activity is running missions in empire (because if the stats could, the bot would be banned!).

Highseccers have believed for a long time, in defiance of all reality, that they are the vast silent majority. They rail against the CSM because it shows that it's not true. There is no groundswell of people who run missions in highsec. There's no silent majority of people who actually love mining in empire without the wonderful player vs player interaction offered by CODE, Goonswarm, and other noble self-sacrificing EVE players who take the valuable time out of their day to venture into highsec to make it a little more exciting for everyone else. People begged for a more representative voting system, they got it, and huh, it turns out that that silent majority still isn't there. So despite the fact that STV is very well understood, used in real life, and its edge cases are well known garden-variety EVEO idiots continually spout as a postulate that it prevents highsec from getting representation, without the slightest attempt to explain why. It is taken as a given that because highsec gets little representation and nullsec lots, that the voting system is flawed: not that that's what the reality is.

This highsec majority doesn't exist because most of the people who just play eve in highsec quit, because frankly EVE's pve is not very good and never has been. And people who like it despite how terrible it is are the very last people you want representing highsec. Hi, i'm the person who still likes highsec despite highsec driving away every normal person. I'm the person you should speak to about making it better, me, the crazy person who if i get what i want will only reinforce the things that make it terrible for normals. What this game needs is to appeal to people who want to roleplay as bots more, without any annoying interaction more difficult than someone with thirty seconds of coding experience can script a response to. Please eliminate anything like that like ganking, thanks.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2017-04-21 14:25:57 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:

LOL ok, either now you are backpedaling on theoretically discussing a theoretical topic, or as just a Director of Finance somebody higher than you told you to quit your lid. either way, unless you want to actually continue it, this troll discussion of a troll post has pretty much run its course i think.

psst if you're trying to say you were only pretending to be an idiot you have to stop posting like an idiot once you reveal that you are, in fact, the puppetmaster and not a guy who ties his shoelaces together most mornings
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#136 - 2017-04-21 15:41:40 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Several people are saying, if you can't be bothered to vote then why should you be represented, in a game. Is this really a good attitude? Sure it's a HTFU attitude but does it actually work?


I don't know about the others, but I have this attitude because I trust the non-voters to take care of themselves. It comes across as HTFU because of the second assumption that there will always be non-voters. Where do you draw the line and move forward without waiting anymore?


Its probably easier to explain with an IRL example: In my college days I was in a fraternity with about 20 guys.

My first year as a member they spent a lot of time trying to plan recruitment and other formal events around when all 20 people could show up, and what ended up happening was an enormous game of calendar tetris, and events full of people that didn't want to be there but had to because we moved the event back just for them. Who would join a fraternity when none of the members want to be at the events?

When I was in charge I took the opposite approach. The event is going to be Wednesday at 7pm, and I don't care who is there. You have 3 days to get your **** together and free your schedule for it, and you choose your level of involvement.

We were able to plan more events, and had stronger member showings at each event because only the people that wanted to be there would show up. No more dragging horses to water, just to watch them not drink.



Taking it back to EVE, do people honestly expect a CSM full of representatives for the non-voters would be as useful to the player base compared to what we have now? I don't like a CSM full of "null-sec wanna be devs", but I'd rather the pro-active, highly engaged people get their candidates instead of people that aren't aware CSM is even a thing.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#137 - 2017-04-21 16:08:43 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
]Taking it back to EVE, do people honestly expect a CSM full of representatives for the non-voters would be as useful to the player base compared to what we have now? I don't like a CSM full of "null-sec wanna be devs", but I'd rather the pro-active, highly engaged people get their candidates instead of people that aren't aware CSM is even a thing.


Still comes down to playstyles that innately revolve around organizing mass numbers disenfranchising playstyles that do not. It's not really a question of non-voters vs voters, many people do vote for the candidates they think will best represent them, but due to the size of those niches, or the lack of centralization in those niches, the candidates have less chance of actually getting elected, as the vote for that niche ends up spread. Considering the CFC (Imperium) is more than twice the size by player number of the next biggest null bloc, it should come as no surprise they can stack the panel, versus what is probably a very flat distribution of lots of mom and pop, smaller corps which may vote for their 'local' candidate, thus ensuring their defeat.

There are many very passionate, and very knowledgeable individuals that ran this year, last year, and the year before it.

For example, compare

'Aryth' wrote:

I am not going to do any of those things because I don't need your votes you terrible pubbies.


to...well any of the other CSM candidates that spent a lot of time showing you how passionate they were about their respective niche of the game. Aryth probably got the highest number of votes. What does it say about the voting system when the top player representative calls most of the voters 'pubbies' and terrible ones at that? Clearly Aryth can afford to be completely realistic and cynical and the same time. I mean that's some bravado, but at the same time that should hint at how broken the system really is.

I think people are fundamentally missing the point. I'm not trying to contest the democratic process, or that bigger numbers shouldn't beat smaller numbers. If the CSM is supposed to be a tool to represent players of this game, it has completely failed for one, and the only way to get actual player representation is to be more proactive about how the system works.

'CSM Information Page' wrote:

The role of a CSM member is to represent the player community in the development of EVE Online.


Clearly the rest of us 'Terrible Pubbies' aren't part of the wider player community.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2017-04-21 16:52:35 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aryth probably got the highest number of votes. What does it say about the voting system when the top player representative calls most of the voters 'pubbies' and terrible ones at that? Clearly Aryth can afford to be completely realistic and cynical and the same time. I mean that's some bravado, but at the same time that should hint at how broken the system really is.

it says that the system works, because it allows groups to elect representatives without needing broad approval, so similarly highsec pubbies can elect someone without needing to kiss the ring of the mighty goonswarm empire. you've just proven the complete opposite of the point you claim to be making. you did, of course, prove what your actual complaint is: you are very mad that better-respected people got elected and you didn't

also are you ever going to explain what you think your idiot graph in the first post means
Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
#139 - 2017-04-21 16:58:43 UTC
I wouldn't care who ran and won if they had the best interests of EVE and the community as a whole as their main focus. Throw in genial participation with the other Council members and a good work ethic and I could accept just about anyone in the role, no matter how different their EVE life is from mine. What I find disheartening is that we re-elect someone with a 15% attendance for meetings, people with open hostility and disdain for other types of gameplay/areas, and a general attitude that as long as my group of people in my alliance get what they want, everything is fair and balanced. Yes, we do have some good people on the new CSM, but we could have elected a better representing CSM.

To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.

...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#140 - 2017-04-21 17:03:20 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
When I was in charge I took the opposite approach. The event is going to be Wednesday at 7pm, and I don't care who is there. You have 3 days to get your **** together and free your schedule for it, and you choose your level of involvement.

We were able to plan more events, and had stronger member showings at each event because only the people that wanted to be there would show up. No more dragging horses to water, just to watch them not drink.


Taking this comparison back to eve in my view; your system would in fact be more like regular player surveys of the entire playerbase, where each player can choose the level of representation he gets, in the responses to the questions. Instead of the once a year scheduled CSM elections which involve research outside of simply playing the game.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.