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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Remove WCS

Author
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2017-04-20 19:27:08 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:

The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched.


This here prove that you do not even understand what is going on. A bubble on the beacon will change nothing except which ship will be used to do the farming.


Maybe... but it makes it more expensive.

You have to train your farming toon to be able to fly interceptors. Racial frig V, Evasive Maneuvering V, Interceptor I. The ship it self costs more as well... so the "asleep at the wheel" moments when you can kill a farmer would cost them more.

An alternative would be to have the plex scram everyone in range with 10 points. Or just have WCS not work inside a plex.

The issue isn't the module... it's not even that it makes it so farmers can escape. It's simply that it makes it too easy for them to escape. You don't have to make it impossible to fix the problem... just more difficult. All of those options do just that.


The issue is that people think that being in a plex mean you should fight while the plexes were designed from the very beginning as not requiring to fight to complete. The people who are mad about this just aren't happy about the design of FW. It was never about a bunch of fight but always about territory presence. If you keep chasing the farmer away, they will never be able to take your systems so you are effectively winning the war. If people can't use stabbed ship to farm, they will use unfitted ships to reduce their occasional losses or just go elsewhere and the PvP seeker will realize they have 1 less problem since stabbed farmer no longer run away from them but they also have even less people in system to run after.

It's like people running PvE who run when you try to catch them. They don't run because it's easy, they run because it's more efficient to do so than fight. As long as fighting is less valuable than running, people will run. You can't stop that. You can make it more aggravating but past a threshold, your target stop running and just leave at which point even the tools you had to catch him stop working.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#62 - 2017-04-20 19:57:47 UTC
Scialt wrote:
I'm not sure I see the problem with it in exploration fits. Cargo space and nano's both help with exploration fits (especially in null) so there is a tradeoff in what you use for lows. You also aren't entering a factional warfare complex... and while PvP CAN happen anywhere, preparing by fitting your ship for escape is also allowed.


Cargo space is worthless because the high-value loot from exploration is also low-volume. By the time you've filled your standard cargo hold you're already putting hundreds of millions of ISK in a fragile ship, and it's time to unload that cargo somewhere safe. Nanos are useful, but primarily for improving your align time and escaping, something that WCS makes redundant.

And yes, fitting your ship for escape is also allowed. That should involve things like improving your align time to warp out before the threat can lock you, fitting speed buffs to out-run tackle, carrying ECM drones to attempt to jam your way out, etc. It should not involve fitting zero-penalty "I'm immune to PvP" modules.

Quote:
One side trying to escape before the other can kill them is still pvp.


There is no trying, there is simply escape. You fit your WCS, and anything but a specialized anti-WCS ship is going to fail to catch you. And that's the problem. That isn't successful defensive PvP, it's turning off your PvP flag and being a pure PvE player.

Quote:
If you take out WCS, it's literally impossible for non-combat ships to escape once disrupted/scrammed.


I fail to see the problem here. The primary defense of non-combat ships is not getting tackled in the first place. If you're caught it's because you already screwed up, and you don't have much right to complain. Perhaps the lesson here should be "don't fly non-combat ships". Don't fly unarmed frigates in FW sites, take an Astero/Stratios for exploration instead of an unarmed covops frigate, etc.

Now, there is an argument that WCS aren't a problem in the context of travel fits attempting to escape gate camps, but that's an easy solution. Just increase the penalties of WCS so that doing anything but travel is impossible. Things like setting your lock range to 0km would have no effect on travel-fit haulers.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#63 - 2017-04-20 20:01:22 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The issue is that people think that being in a plex mean you should fight while the plexes were designed from the very beginning as not requiring to fight to complete.


Only because you can't depend on having an opponent available for a fight, so the mechanic has to be possible without the other side cooperating. That doesn't mean that the sites are supposed to be pure PvE farming, where combat is to be avoided at all costs. Perhaps the problem goes beyond WCS, but FW farming is not a good thing.

Quote:
It's like people running PvE who run when you try to catch them. They don't run because it's easy, they run because it's more efficient to do so than fight. As long as fighting is less valuable than running, people will run. You can't stop that. You can make it more aggravating but past a threshold, your target stop running and just leave at which point even the tools you had to catch him stop working.


And, again, I have no problem with people running because they had sufficient situational awareness to recognize a threat and move to escape. What I have a problem with is lazy and/or incompetent players who completely ignore everything around them, confident that they have WCS fitted and can just warp out when someone tries to attack them. That kind of stupidity should get you caught and killed, but WCS let you turn off your PvP flag and get away with it.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2017-04-20 20:47:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Merin Ryskin wrote:


And, again, I have no problem with people running because they had sufficient situational awareness to recognize a threat and move to escape. What I have a problem with is lazy and/or incompetent players who completely ignore everything around them, confident that they have WCS fitted and can just warp out when someone tries to attack them. That kind of stupidity should get you caught and killed, but WCS let you turn off your PvP flag and get away with it.


You are too lazy and/or incompetent to fit 2 scrams or use a navy maulus and you want incompetence and laziness to be nerfed? Will you also ask CCP to nerf ECM when people turn to that to break your lock and escape you because you obviously can't fit ECCM on a standard PvP ship in the same way you can't fit 2 scrams or use a different ship.

Merin Ryskin wrote:

There is no trying, there is simply escape. You fit your WCS, and anything but a specialized anti-WCS ship is going to fail to catch you. And that's the problem. That isn't successful defensive PvP, it's turning off your PvP flag and being a pure PvE player.



About this, you consider <2 seconds align ceptor to be turning PvP flag off right? Or anything below 2 seconds since you probably spend most of your time in low sec.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#65 - 2017-04-20 21:08:12 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.

Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......

You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....

If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.

Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.

Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway.



try injecting the Reading Comprehension Skill first.
Doddy
Excidium.
#66 - 2017-04-20 21:17:57 UTC
To be honest it is already loaded in your favour. You can counter 3 stabs with two med slots. You not fitting enough points to counter the stabs is no different to you not fitting enough speed to keep up with them, enough firepower to break their tank or enough tank to survive their firepower. Everything in eve is give and take, they gimp their fit to load up on stabs, you can gimp your fit to catch them. Double scram rocket bomber catches every stabbed frigate i ever came across tbh, venture with their built in stabs apart. They aren't "immune to pvp", they are immune to people who don't fit right. And its not zero penalty, since they are completely at the mercy of people who, guess what, fit right.

Saying they will get away unless you are flying a specific anti wcs set up is kind of missing the point of eve. If you want to hunt stabbed frigates in fw plexes you should be flying a specific anti wcs setup, that is how eve works. You wanting to hunt them in a normal fit ship says more about you than them.
Fek Mercer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2017-04-20 21:50:23 UTC
I think a lot of people here are simply saying to bring ships built around catching stabbed plexers, but what happens when you run into a plexer willing to fight? I don't think faction warfare players should be forced into a dice roll like that, it's just screams bad design, flipping a coin and hoping your opponent is fit to run away. Not to mention, even if everyone you ran into was stabbed, the lack of good fights would probably turn stale to many people. What's more, in my experience, it's not just stabs, people align out the second they see you within < 1au on dscan, and hit the jump button as you arrive into the site from taking the gate.

If you want people to stop bringing stabs, I'd suggest CCP using the 'natural phenomena are disruptng your ship' kind of message spiel when attempting to warp to a plex/use an acceleration gate
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#68 - 2017-04-20 22:08:40 UTC
Fek Mercer wrote:
I think a lot of people here are simply saying to bring ships built around catching stabbed plexers, but what happens when you run into a plexer willing to fight? I don't think faction warfare players should be forced into a dice roll like that, it's just screams bad design, flipping a coin and hoping your opponent is fit to run away. Not to mention, even if everyone you ran into was stabbed, the lack of good fights would probably turn stale to many people. What's more, in my experience, it's not just stabs, people align out the second they see you within < 1au on dscan, and hit the jump button as you arrive into the site from taking the gate.

If you want people to stop bringing stabs, I'd suggest CCP using the 'natural phenomena are disruptng your ship' kind of message spiel when attempting to warp to a plex/use an acceleration gate



If I were in FW and presented w/ the farmer or pvp? Question - I would immediately consult my overpowered intel (local chat) and drop the name of the person in question into a kb and check the results. If he's a farmer it will light up red w/ stabbed this or that's or (if he's really good at risk aversion) nothing will show up. If he's a pvp guy lurking in the site the kb will tell you that also. Based on my over powered intel I can jump in the appropriate ship and have a go at it.

If he's somewhere in between then that is when you clench your butt, pick a ship, warp in and see what's what.


Honestly all you 'pvp guys' that are crying that they can't always be fit to win..... sheesh. Get a keres alt or I don't know.... a friend maybe and gang up on the guy. If you're that "I'm an elite solo pvp only guy, well accept Eve for what it is and understand those good solo fights are going to be few and far between.

I hate to say this, because I feel I'm insulting the pvp guys, but here it is - instead of focusing on hating stabs, get in your pvp ship and just go system to system ratting in belts. You'll get some isk, other pvp guys in the area will find you and you'll get pvp fights.

If you're a 'pvp guy' that only wants to wonk up on ratters - don't cry because of WCS cry because you're doing it wrong.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#69 - 2017-04-21 01:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawketsled
[EDIT:] Derp.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2017-04-21 03:23:12 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:


I hate to say this, because I feel I'm insulting the pvp guys, but here it is - instead of focusing on hating stabs, get in your pvp ship and just go system to system ratting in belts. You'll get some isk, other pvp guys in the area will find you and you'll get pvp fights.


But but... I managed to land a single point on the enemy, I deserve the kill!!!!
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2017-04-21 03:26:01 UTC
Fek Mercer wrote:
I think a lot of people here are simply saying to bring ships built around catching stabbed plexers, but what happens when you run into a plexer willing to fight? I don't think faction warfare players should be forced into a dice roll like that, it's just screams bad design, flipping a coin and hoping your opponent is fit to run away. Not to mention, even if everyone you ran into was stabbed, the lack of good fights would probably turn stale to many people. What's more, in my experience, it's not just stabs, people align out the second they see you within < 1au on dscan, and hit the jump button as you arrive into the site from taking the gate.

If you want people to stop bringing stabs, I'd suggest CCP using the 'natural phenomena are disruptng your ship' kind of message spiel when attempting to warp to a plex/use an acceleration gate


Oh noes, in EVE online, I might not always be 100% fit to take 100% of the fights. How could the devs ever let that happen.

God sometime I really feel I could bury myself in salt bu just rolling an alt to "afk-farm" FW plexes in a griffin and jamming people.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#72 - 2017-04-21 04:09:26 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.

Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......

You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....

If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.

Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.

Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway.



try injecting the Reading Comprehension Skill first.

What did I miss?
Fek Mercer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2017-04-21 04:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Fek Mercer
Rawketsled wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.

Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......

You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....

If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.

Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.

Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway.



try injecting the Reading Comprehension Skill first.

What did I miss?


It's the militant that gets the short end of the stick if he doesn't want to lose standings. If he preemptively attacks the pirate, he loses sec status, thus we should make non faction warfare pilots get suspect status when entering a plex. But, this thread is about warp core stabilizers...
Ronnie Rose
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2017-04-21 04:44:56 UTC
I'm for getting rid of WCS along with WC scramblers and jammers.

We're not here to change the game, we're here to change YOUR game

Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#75 - 2017-04-21 07:02:34 UTC
Fek Mercer wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.

Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......

You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....

If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.

Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.

Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway.



try injecting the Reading Comprehension Skill first.

What did I miss?


It's the militant that gets the short end of the stick if he doesn't want to lose standings. If he preemptively attacks the pirate, he loses sec status, thus we should make non faction warfare pilots get suspect status when entering a plex. But, this thread is about warp core stabilizers...

Even if the pirate is already -5?

I've been operating under the assumption that you could shoot -5 people with zero standing repercussion.