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Remove WCS
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#41 - 2017-04-20 01:06:27 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
AAaaannnndddd there is the problem.

Pirate, not Militia, entering Plex sites.......

You know what, I could agree with you maybe.....

If first anybody not Militia entering one of these complex sites automatically becomes suspect (flashy yellow) the moment you hit the "use the acceleration" button on your UI.

Because without that, if someone cares about their Standings....they have to wait for you to shoot first, and as a non-military pilot or such, you have no legal business being in one of those sights.

Pirates don't worry about security status. Making them flashy-yellow isn't going to matter because they're almost always minus-five security anyway.
Alessienne Ellecon
Doomheim
#42 - 2017-04-20 09:22:22 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Give them some sort of spool-up or preparation mechanic - either a warm-up timer like MJDs, or make the align speed higher to make them stay on grid longer. The point is to make them stay on grid for a little while unless they're paying attention and can pre-empt your tackle (of course in this case they should just bloody warp out).


The problem, again, is that things like this encourage blobbing. If you know you only have a fixed time before the WCS activates and breaks your point then you have to bring more dps to kill your target before they can escape. That gets you the kill, but makes the fight much less entertaining because it's so one-sided.

Then a cap-intensive active WCS is the better alternative here.

WCS is the natural counter to a point.
Neuting is the counter to the WCS.

If you want fights to be solo/fairer, then fit neuts and drain them before they warp out.


That's not strictly necessary. Don't forget that cap is required to warp, so if you neut someone right down to zero, they will only be able to flee a short distance, in which case you can easily catch up and hit them some more.

"CONCORD are the space cops. If you attack someone in a high-security solar system, CONCORD will commit police brutality." - Encyclopedia Dramatica

If EVE is a PvP game, then Anti-Ganking is emergent gameplay.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#43 - 2017-04-20 10:02:12 UTC
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:
That's not strictly necessary. Don't forget that cap is required to warp, so if you neut someone right down to zero, they will only be able to flee a short distance, in which case you can easily catch up and hit them some more.


Lolwut? That's a pretty impressive ignorance of game mechanics. Even a tiny amount of cap is enough to warp way off grid, and you'll have enough cap to complete your escape long before anyone can get scan probes on you and catch you. The fact that you don't immediately get to your destination is meaningless when "a short distance" is thousands of kilometers, if not millions.

Donnachadh wrote:
Fights do not win FW capturing complexes does.
Fights do not make LP / ISK capturing complexes does.
And so fights with other players enemy faction or non-aligned pirates like you is to be avoided whenever possible. To put this another way if you want fights in your FW experience then you need to FORCE the other players you come into contact with into those fights.


And this is exactly the problem with the situation: faction WARFARE is being used for ISK farming, not war. The strategy of "fit WCS and avoid combat at all costs" should not be profitable. The ISK is supposed to be a reward for engaging in PvP, not the primary objective. Nerfing WCS to make stabbed plex farming impossible would be a nice first step in removing the ISK farmers from FW.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
If you really wanted to catch these guys you could fit up a triple-scram setup or something and give the really inattentive ones a nasty surprise. The reason no one does this is because they don't like the trade-off they have to make.


No, the reason is that the tradeoff is impossible to make. A triple-scram setup is a suicidally stupid fit on many ships, especially the T1 frigates that are popular in FW. If you even have enough mids to do it you're giving up your AB/MWD, which means the only thing you can possibly engage is stabbed farmers. Any PvP opponent is going to kill you effortlessly. And you probably aren't even going to catch the one thing you can beat, since it's so easy to get out of scram range against a stationary opponent.

Quote:
I highly highly doubt that, they'll just swap from WCS to full nano/inertial stab fits and continue to attempt to run away, because what they're after is ISK not a fight.


And, as I said, that's fine. At least that involves superior situational awareness and being faster than the hunter, not simply fitting WCS and declaring themselves immune to PvP.

Quote:
Situational awareness only gets you so far, ECM and neuts don't work on a large variety of ships and ECM specifically is ineffective without a bonused ship, align time is the worst tank above insta-warp, the list of arguments against your arguments goes on.


Sounds like you don't know PvP very well. Situational awareness is an auto-win because a target will appear on d-scan with plenty of time for you to escape. When combined with a fast align time it's almost impossible to catch a ship that is paying attention, unless they're willing to fight.

And yes, those other things are situational, but that's kind of the point. They require a good strategy and knowing how to win the fight, not simply declaring "I can not be tackled" and turning off PvP.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#44 - 2017-04-20 10:09:55 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices.


The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.

And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much.

Quote:
You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part.


And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2017-04-20 10:58:56 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices.


The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.

And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much.

Quote:
You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part.


And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.


Surely this is a problem with the way faction war works, not with the way WCS work.

Also I thought the maximum low slots on a frig was four? So if you fit one scram and one faction scram you will be able to pin down any frigate no matter what they have fitted. You'd still have spare mids and no problem with your usual lows if you are in an armour frig.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#46 - 2017-04-20 11:30:00 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices.


The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.

And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much.

Quote:
You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part.


And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.



I don't think anyone is arguing the facts of your arguments. The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken.

It seems that the thing that is really broken is how FW is more about farming isk than about fighting over territory in LS. I'll ask you this: Does a FW beacon bubble and web tower seem like a reasonable fix to you? It would make stabs mostly irrelevant in the FW sites and require commitment and risk from anyone looking to farm the isk.


There is a lot of pve in eve that gives fairly decent isk return with minimal or no commitment. I think a general improvement to pve in specific and the game in general would be to require some more commitment when a player warps into a pve site. Bubbles, scrams, webs (I'm talking multiple like in sleeper sites, not just one suicidal npc frigate that cycles his point intermittently). And to be clear it should scale with the isk value of the site and the true sec of the system (and for obvious reasons if an alliance upgrades the pve in their system it would go hand in hand that the difficulty and commitment would go up with it).

FW is a specific slice of Eve and the stabbed plexer farmer is a thin slice of that. Fix the thin slice, don't change the whole game for that thin slice.
Cade Windstalker
#47 - 2017-04-20 13:18:36 UTC
Not a fan of having a site that webs, but having one that points could be a reasonable solution here.

The real point here is that the issues people have with FWar are complex and resist simple solutions.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2017-04-20 14:25:00 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Not a fan of having a site that webs, but having one that points could be a reasonable solution here.

The real point here is that the issues people have with FWar are complex and resist simple solutions.


Navy Maulus solve all stabs issue. A base scram will disrupt for 4 points requiring 4 stabs fitted to escape. If you really want to go full try-hard on the farmers, go with a faction scram for 5 points of disruption.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#49 - 2017-04-20 15:02:49 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
That is the player's purpose for being there, but ask yourself what the purpose of the FW is. Is it for people to make LP/ISK, or is the LP/ISK an incentive for players to go there so that they can get fights?

Allow me to bold the relevant part of the name:
Faction Warfare

Under the current system there is no real benefit to engaging in a fight. Since you have to capture plexes to force a system into a vulnerable state and you cannot capture plexes when you are fighting others the system actually makes it better to avoid the fight and move on to another plex elsewhere. Even as defenders it is better for the overall goal as well as more profitable (ISK / LP) to simply go out and recapture a plex rather than fight to prevent one from being captured. Combine all of this with when and how the LP / ISK is actually paid out (when you capture a plex) and there is very little reason to actually engage in anything that resembles "war" or even a one on one fight over a plex. Setting that aside everything in this game right now is either exploited for LP / ISK or it is ignored by the vast majority of the players and FW is no different. So it you want some actual "war" in your FW then you need to lobby CCP to change the system so you only get paid LP / ISK for engaging in an actual war. But I caution you to be careful what you ask for because it is my belief that if FW was changed to actually promote war not only by game mechanics but by LP / ISK payouts the vast majority of the players that are currently in FW will simply do elsewhere in the game to make LP / ISK so you will likely have very few targets to shoot at anyway.

Old Pervert wrote:
If they want to avoid fights, they can run missions in high sec. Players shouldn't be making obscene isk running away from content.

Why should they go to high sec when they can make more LP / ISK farming plexes in FW? and that is assuming their sec status would even allow them to go into high sec to run missions.

Players should not be allowed to make obscene amounts of ISK running from content in nul sec and worm holes yet that happens every single minute that EvE is online with players in it, why should FW be any different.

Beside those FW farmers are not running from content, they are running from YOU and a form of content they do not want any part of,it is up to you and others like the OP to make them pay for their farming ways. Except you are just like to OP you have that entitled attitude that you should not have to compromise your fits to stop them so you come here and complain about a module that is well balanced as witnessed by comments from many of the players here.

Old Pervert
Donnachadh wrote:
What useless non-sense is this. Fitting WCS already has some serious drawbacks as in they use a mid slot.

Since when? WCS use lowslots. Which means you can fit as much tank as you want. And if their goal is to run away like little bitches, what compromises are they actually making apart from none? They aren't looking to fight anyways, the drawbacks are irrelevant to them.[/quote wrote:

Oops got me on that one.
Even accounting for my mistake there are more than enough negative aspects to using the WCS to balance them and players like Serendipity and Daichi are in agreement with me on that point.

[quote=Merin Ryskin]The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.

It is only your opinion that stabbed out farmers make no sacrifices in their fits but that does not make it true. The fact that most of the others here in this topic think the WCS are well balanced and have more than sufficient compromises when fitting them tends to prove you wrong as does the simple fact that CCP has not changed them in forever.

And you keep ignoring a simple fact about the game of EvE.
There is ALWAYS a ship that is well suited to any situation you may face.
There is NEVER a single ship that is well suited for all situations you face.
You have been given many options that you can emplooy to solve your problems, yet you continue to insist the WCS are broken and need to be changed or removed. Seems to me the real problem here is you, your attitude and your expectations.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#50 - 2017-04-20 15:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Scialt
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
EvE is about choices and the consequences that go along with those choices, the FW farmers are making choices and willing to suffer the consequences that may come as a result of those choices, yet you are not, and yes you do have choices.


The point that the pro-WCS side keeps ignoring is that the FW farmers don't make sacrifices. At no point does fitting WCS interfere with their ability to farm ISK at maximum efficiency. There mere presence in the plex counts towards capturing it, no matter what ship/fit they have. If you're a plex farmer there is literally no reason to use anything but a full rack of WCS, preferably on a ship with an inherent WCS bonus.

And of course the same is true for other areas of ISK farming. Running relic/data sites? Fit all the WCS you want, at no point will it reduce your ISK per hour. Even most combat PvE is easy enough that you can fit enough WCS to be immune to most PvP ships without sacrificing much.

Quote:
You could use a ship with a more appropriate set of traits and slot layout as Daichi suggests, but you are not willing to do that because. Another failure on your part.


And, again, this is a sign of a serious balance issue if only a very small number of ships can even get fights at all. The fact that a small number of ships can, with specific fits, have enough points to catch stabbed farmers (usually at the expensive of being able to engage anything else) does not negate the fact that most ships/fits can't do it.


the point is FW <> WCS.

If you want to limit WCS in FW space... sure. Have the plex scram everyone within range to trigger the plex with 10 points of scram or drop a bubble around it or something. Maybe just disable WCS in a plex.

But the module itself serves a purpose in other places (hauling/travel for example).

Getting rid of the module because it causes an issue in ONE part of eve is a silly solution. Just fix that one part of space to solve the issue.

Also... as far as getting fights... I do run from fights in a non-stabbed ship. If I'm in a T1 frigate and I see 4 navy frigates warping into a novice complex I'm in... I'm probably going to run away. Having the ability to run from a fight isn't a problem. Someone watching D-scan is pretty much immune to PvP (force recon accessible locations excluded). The issue is that with a stabbed up ships not needing to be alert to avoid the fight. A week ago I warped in on a stabbed up atron in a site and popped him before he noticed I was there (I assume he was running several sites with several toons).

The main difference is that if you catch a non-stabbed pilot asleep at the wheel, you only need to lock and scram before he wakes up to keep him from fleeing. With a stabbed pilot you need to actually destroy him before he wakes up.
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2017-04-20 16:26:06 UTC
I'm sorry, but I don't support ******* over a crap ton of different sub-cap haulers because you can't bring a friend or two to kill one guy that fitted himself to avoid solo-gankers.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2017-04-20 16:54:28 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
[

Quote:
Implying that anyone currently fitting WCS in a FW Plex is ever going to provide anything other than a one-sided fight...


Maybe they will if they're forced to learn, instead of being coddled with an auto-escape option that allows them to avoid learning how to win a fight.


See, I think this is where your initial premise is flawed. Your assumption is that their definition of "winning" is the same as yours. They don't care about the fights. They care about the ISK. Take away their WCS and they'll just move on to some other activity that nets them an equitable risk to income ratio.

What they won't do is suddenly start shooting back. That I can pretty much promise you.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#53 - 2017-04-20 18:29:30 UTC
I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus.

A signature :o
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2017-04-20 18:34:01 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus.


Been suggested. People ignored it...
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#55 - 2017-04-20 18:37:12 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus.


Been suggested. People ignored it...


Because a single ship being able to solve the problem does not mean that no balance problem exists. Focusing on this one particular ship is an implicit concession that there is a major balance problem making everything else useless.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#56 - 2017-04-20 18:43:13 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken.


It's a problem for more than FW, the stabbed FW farmers are just the most obvious instance of the problem. It's also a problem with relic/data sites, where filling your lows with WCS is also turning off PvP without suffering any penalties for it. And the "encouraging bad fits" problem exists any time people take WCS into PvP. Removing WCS, or at least nerfing them to be impossible to use on anything but a travel fit, would be good for the game as a whole.

Quote:
Does a FW beacon bubble and web tower seem like a reasonable fix to you?


The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched. WCS would still be a problem, but at least the primary abusers would be nerfed. But the webbing would be pointless and bad for balance, even if it applies to all ships equally you've still got problems like low-tracking guns suddenly dealing way more damage.

IMO the better solution might be to simply have any ship with WCS fitted not count towards capturing the site.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2017-04-20 18:46:57 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
I believe the ship you're looking for is the Navy Maulus.


Been suggested. People ignored it...


Because a single ship being able to solve the problem does not mean that no balance problem exists. Focusing on this one particular ship is an implicit concession that there is a major balance problem making everything else useless.


It's not even a problem it's just a bunch of people being ass-blasted they can't kill a half-afk farmer who pretty much nullified his ship combat capabilities so he can escape some engagements. The tools to counter his fits are there but you willingly refuse to use them. You deserve to have him escape from you and collect your salt all the way to his next PLEX where he will still escape you.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2017-04-20 18:49:52 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:

The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched.


This here prove that you do not even understand what is going on. A bubble on the beacon will change nothing except which ship will be used to do the farming.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#59 - 2017-04-20 19:02:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:

The bubble part would fix this one particular problem, but leave the rest untouched.


This here prove that you do not even understand what is going on. A bubble on the beacon will change nothing except which ship will be used to do the farming.


Maybe... but it makes it more expensive.

You have to train your farming toon to be able to fly interceptors. Racial frig V, Evasive Maneuvering V, Interceptor I. The ship it self costs more as well... so the "asleep at the wheel" moments when you can kill a farmer would cost them more.

An alternative would be to have the plex scram everyone in range with 10 points. Or just have WCS not work inside a plex.

The issue isn't the module... it's not even that it makes it so farmers can escape. It's simply that it makes it too easy for them to escape. You don't have to make it impossible to fix the problem... just more difficult. All of those options do just that.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#60 - 2017-04-20 19:12:48 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The issue though lies with FW and not w/ stabs. Changing stabs would change the whole game. The point (from some of us) is leave stabs as is and fix the thing that's really broken.


It's a problem for more than FW, the stabbed FW farmers are just the most obvious instance of the problem. It's also a problem with relic/data sites, where filling your lows with WCS is also turning off PvP without suffering any penalties for it. And the "encouraging bad fits" problem exists any time people take WCS into PvP. Removing WCS, or at least nerfing them to be impossible to use on anything but a travel fit, would be good for the game as a whole.



I'm not sure I see the problem with it in exploration fits. Cargo space and nano's both help with exploration fits (especially in null) so there is a tradeoff in what you use for lows. You also aren't entering a factional warfare complex... and while PvP CAN happen anywhere, preparing by fitting your ship for escape is also allowed.

One side trying to escape before the other can kill them is still pvp. If you take out WCS, it's literally impossible for non-combat ships to escape once disrupted/scrammed. That is simply not how eve works. There's always a counter.