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Quafe Convoy Destroyed By Caldari Forces On Caldari-Gallente Border

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#381 - 2017-04-19 22:09:50 UTC
It's not necessarily the case that the truth might make the State seem worse to interested parties - it might just be the case that information being released would have consequences worse than reporting they'd destroyed all the freighters and killed all the crews.

Most of the reasons I can think of are due to some developing situation or investigation.

If you remember a week or two ago, many of us were sure that said situation was a burgeoning conflict with the Federation - but talk of war has also gone cold and, since the Fed girding it's loins for a new war would require plenty of media frothing to whip up Gallente sentiment, I'm now a lot less confident in that scenario.

So, if I were to hazard a guess as to what and why, I'd say that they need something from some of the crew. That they've taken those crew into custody and that they destroyed the ships and have kept the rest of the recovered crew to obfuscate precisely which crew they wanted from which ships in the convoy.

It's really the only thing that makes sense.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

TomHorn
Silk Road Dark Web
#382 - 2017-04-19 23:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Information may just be classified for national security reasons.

They had the evidence , they had a reason , they are unable to reveal that information without compromising their sources.

This kinda thing is pretty common , public accept that their government are telling them truth.
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#383 - 2017-04-19 23:21:26 UTC
An update from authorities.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

TomHorn
Silk Road Dark Web
#384 - 2017-04-19 23:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Oh well , how about that.

Glory to the State
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#385 - 2017-04-20 00:51:39 UTC
Yup. They totally had the evidence, and totally had a good reason. Definitely shows how much we should be trusting the Caldari Navy, huh?

Quote:
Destroyed while in the process of leaving the State via the Caldari Border Zone, the convoy of seven Obelisk class freighters was lost after being diverted to an off-grid customs holding facility several AU away from the Stargate that connects the Caldari system of Kassigainen with the Federal border system of Algogille.


Diverted to a holding facility and then destroyed... because, mysteriously, seven Obelisks just started to break up when exiting warp. Oh, but their flight data recorders were damaged during recovery, so we can't see if that was actually happening. Recording systems designed to survive the destruction of the ship, damaged. All seven of them. Totally legit, right? Nothing suspicious there.
James Syagrius
Reclamation
#386 - 2017-04-20 00:55:08 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Glory to the State
Such glory, indeed.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#387 - 2017-04-20 01:19:32 UTC
Huh. It just gets weirder, doesn't it?

I'm still firmly of the opinion that there is no reason at all for the State to destroy a shipment of empty soft drink bottles - even bottles that were due to sap the strength of State citizens by being returned full of a second-class beverage - and since further details remain to be given and a review is underway, I'm going to wait for that review to be published.

Given that Customs has accepted responsibility for the incident - however it happened - there seems little chance of it being a plot on behalf of The State. All there is, here, is culpability and bad press - so it'd be an odd sort of machievellian scheme, wouldn't it?

Cui Bono - who benefits, as the Amarrians would say.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#388 - 2017-04-20 02:18:06 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Given that Customs has accepted responsibility for the incident - however it happened - there seems little chance of it being a plot on behalf of The State. All there is, here, is culpability and bad press - so it'd be an odd sort of machievellian scheme, wouldn't it?


Oh, I've no doubt this 'plot' has all of the subtlety and careful, long-term planning typical of a Brave Newbies coup d'etat, e.g.: none. This seems a lot more like your generic 'Glory to the State, and the Federation must something something' type over-zealous idiot kind of move than anything worthy of the word 'plot'.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#389 - 2017-04-20 04:40:13 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

If there is no statement, then there is nothing to explain.


Even you cannot be this brainwashed.

Even you cannont be this dumb to believe I could be brainwashed.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#390 - 2017-04-20 05:16:11 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Given that Customs has accepted responsibility for the incident - however it happened - there seems little chance of it being a plot on behalf of The State. All there is, here, is culpability and bad press - so it'd be an odd sort of machievellian scheme, wouldn't it?


Oh, I've no doubt this 'plot' has all of the subtlety and careful, long-term planning typical of a Brave Newbies coup d'etat, e.g.: none. This seems a lot more like your generic 'Glory to the State, and the Federation must something something' type over-zealous idiot kind of move than anything worthy of the word 'plot'.


You know that there's a difference between being blunt and being stupid. If the Navy was as stupid as you're suggesting I'd have been "most promising rookie" in the FDU not Cal Mil.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Haru'kai Vidaraltyr
Oymak Batachikan
#391 - 2017-04-20 09:23:02 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You know that there's a difference between being blunt and being stupid. If the Navy was as stupid as you're suggesting I'd have been "most promising rookie" in the FDU not Cal Mil.


Is the Caldari Customs a division of the Navy? I am no expert in State law but the accountability appears to reside with Customs from these reports and the State ultimately bears responsibility for any proven breach of the Yulai Convention. How this liability is discharged has clearly been left in the hands of the Caldari Business Tribunal - a body whose accountability and constitution is not clear to me.

I think the decision by DED to allow the investigation to proceed under State provisions is wise at this time, given the State's default position on outside interference. However, because this is also an apparent breach of the Yulai Convention (and a significant one, if proven) the State would do well to be very open about the conclusions, even if they reflect poorly on a subsection of the Armed Forces.

Trade is the lifeblood of the State, perhaps more than any other empire, and random, unexplained destruction of convoys will be viewed with trepidation by those who trade there.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#392 - 2017-04-20 14:14:07 UTC
UPDATE: Quafe Convoy Destruction Confirmed Illegal.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#393 - 2017-04-20 14:24:38 UTC
Haru'kai Vidaraltyr wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You know that there's a difference between being blunt and being stupid. If the Navy was as stupid as you're suggesting I'd have been "most promising rookie" in the FDU not Cal Mil.


Is the Caldari Customs a division of the Navy? I am no expert in State law but the accountability appears to reside with Customs from these reports and the State ultimately bears responsibility for any proven breach of the Yulai Convention. How this liability is discharged has clearly been left in the hands of the Caldari Business Tribunal - a body whose accountability and constitution is not clear to me.

I think the decision by DED to allow the investigation to proceed under State provisions is wise at this time, given the State's default position on outside interference. However, because this is also an apparent breach of the Yulai Convention (and a significant one, if proven) the State would do well to be very open about the conclusions, even if they reflect poorly on a subsection of the Armed Forces.

Trade is the lifeblood of the State, perhaps more than any other empire, and random, unexplained destruction of convoys will be viewed with trepidation by those who trade there.


The CBT is the only non-Corporate court within the State. Because Megas generally own huge chunks of space, most disagreements come under the aegis of the local Mega's own legal system but, for obvious reasons, when two Megacorporations square off, you need an impartial court of law to hear the case. That court is the CBT.

I'd add my voice to you. The investigators need time and privacy to accomplish their investigation, but once that is completed I think the CBT needs to openly publish the results. I think they will - taking responsibility for the destruction of the convoy means that there really IS nothing to gain from stubborn silence.

Now, perhaps, some people could take their tinfoil hats off? If there's speculating to be done, it should be over what happened to the convoy to cause it to break up in transit and why and by whom.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#394 - 2017-04-20 14:54:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
If there's speculating to be done, it should be over what happened to the convoy to cause it to break up in transit and why and by whom.
The Caldari navy did so by firing missiles at them and then destroying the flight recorders and ruling what is left inadmissible.

Seems all the speculation is gone to me.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#395 - 2017-04-20 14:58:16 UTC

Thank you, Mr. Soldarius.

That's interesting. However, I believe that the claim about the confirmation of the illegality of this attack was made too hastily.

From what we know now, it were heavily damaged freighter on a collision course with the holding facility, and it still was damaged by the debris from these freighters.

It looks for me that the Pilot Alpha and the whole squadron deserves the medal for the fast reaction and taking seemingly illegal action to prevent yet another attempt at terror attack, that Gallenteans so love to execute.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Yoshitaka Moromuo
Burning Skies
Apocalypse Now.
#396 - 2017-04-20 15:35:45 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Thank you, Mr. Soldarius.

That's interesting. However, I believe that the claim about the confirmation of the illegality of this attack was made too hastily.

From what we know now, it were heavily damaged freighter on a collision course with the holding facility, and it still was damaged by the debris from these freighters.

It looks for me that the Pilot Alpha and the whole squadron deserves the medal for the fast reaction and taking seemingly illegal action to prevent yet another attempt at terror attack, that Gallenteans so love to execute.

More hearsay. Let the investigation play out, as we only have initial findings.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#397 - 2017-04-20 16:34:36 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
If there's speculating to be done, it should be over what happened to the convoy to cause it to break up in transit and why and by whom.
The Caldari navy did so by firing missiles at them and then destroying the flight recorders and ruling what is left inadmissible.

Seems all the speculation is gone to me.


Since you know everything, would you mind telling me what the why is?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#398 - 2017-04-20 21:16:15 UTC


UPDATE: YOU SHOULD LOOK 9 RESPONSES BEFORE YOURS!

Makoto Priano wrote:

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#399 - 2017-04-20 21:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ayallah wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
If there's speculating to be done, it should be over what happened to the convoy to cause it to break up in transit and why and by whom.
The Caldari navy did so by firing missiles at them and then destroying the flight recorders and ruling what is left inadmissible.

Seems all the speculation is gone to me.


Since you know everything, would you mind telling me what the why is?


Pieter. You know I hate agreeing with Ayallah, but really, c'mon. All seven flight data recorders, designed to survive the ship being blown up, were too heavily damaged for the combined data to be admissible? Even as an incomplete picture of events?

All seven?

Have you ever seen a ship that survived getting into warp break up on existing warp? Ever? I mean, we're not talking about an experimental hull here. We're talking about Obelisks. We're talking about a big can with engines on it. If it survives getting into warp, it's gonna survive coming out again. And this mysterious freak occurance happened... on seven ships? Simultaneously? In the same place?

Remember, someone had to do the diverting, and we've had no reports that they were fired upon before entering warp. By anyone. Once they get into warp, nobody could have fired on them. And none of the recovered debris—even according to the CBT—shows any explosive devices other than the residue from incoming Caldari missile fire. Internal explosions of the sort needed to rupture the hull produce very different debris patterns than missiles detonating agaisnt the hull.

The only testimony we have to say that they were breaking up... was the guys who shot them. And Pilot Alpha doesn't tell us about any attempt at contacting the freighter crews to see if they have the time to render humanitarian assistance to unarmed ships. We're told this was done because of the imminent danger the debris posed to a station with functioning shielding. This station, which would completely ignore capital-class artillery fire, is somehow damaged by debris. Seriously?

Remember: Pilot Alpha is the only one testifying to this. And there's no mention of supporting telemetry from, you know... the Caldari Customs vessels. Or the station, which presumably would have been tracking the 'debris' that supposedly damaged it. The only data we have from the Caldari Customs elements is 'yep, the ships fired six hundred missiles over seven minutes'.

Seven minutes of sustained fire. Not 'instant boom', either. Seven minutes. No time to say 'hey, guys, your hulls are breaking up, can you change course?' but plenty of time to fire off six hundred missiles.

If the ships were already breaking up... why weren't the crew already running for the lifeboats? How is it nobody escaped? On seven Obelisks? 4,691 people, and nobody is near a lifeboat? You can't tell me someone's not gonna panic and be all 'screw you hippies, I'm not dying because I waited for three more guys'. In seven minutes?

So, Pieter:

A convoy of seven Obelisks is diverted to a remote facility.

All seven get into warp without incident.

All seven experience some freak unexplained mishap in warp.

All seven begin to break up on exiting warp.

Nobody notices the ship falling apart—or is close enough to a lifeboat to get to safety—on all seven.

Caldari Customs immediately opens fire.

They keep firing for seven minutes.

During all of this time, still nobody gets to a lifeboat. 4700 people, and nobody makes it to a lifeboat.

The flight data recorders are too heavily damaged to do the one thing they're designed to do. All seven.

Pieter, just how small are the odds of that sequence happening?

How much larger is the likelihood of 'Caldari Customs blew the hell out of some freighters because they got a bug up their butts, purposefully recovered and tampered with the flight data recorders, and there were survivors, but they've either been killed... or 'disappeared'?

Which one's more likely, Pieter? If it wasn't the State, would you be anywhere near this skeptical of the possibility of malfeasance?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#400 - 2017-04-20 23:22:58 UTC
So, I did do some of the foundational training for Detective work, as a youngster. Let me tell you what bothers me about this OTHER than the fact that it's the State that's involved.

1. I absolutely cannot, for the life of me, work out how either the State as a whole or the Customs service in particular benefits from this particular act of savagery. I am totally willing to accept that they are capable of it, but right now the only motive offered is pretty much 'for the evulz' and there aren't many customs officers I've met who would slaughter almost five thousand State citizens because there's a connection to the Federation. You'd need to get the entire crews of the entire Customs squadron on board - not to mention the crew and visitors to the facility.

2. You just ran through all the evidence that points to State involvement. A huge amount of evidence. A huge amount of evidence which there has been no attempt to conceal. A lot of that evidence need never have been created in the first place. There are ways and means to do this sort of thing - and I think you know that they involve the placement of an interdictor between gates and the use of a false flag force. It would have been child's play to assemble some ships that would look like Guristas, or to pay capsuleers to do it.

When assembling a criminal case there are always three legs on which the case must stand. Means, Motive and Opportunity. The State cleary had the Means and the Opportunity. There is absolutely no sane Motive that I can see - and none that has been offered in the many, many pages of commentary, here.

Does it matter? Not really. The State has already accepted responsibility for the incident and judged the destruction of the ships illegal. Unless it can find some other party to pin the initial destruction of the freighters on, the Customs Agency will wind up on the hook for this breach of the Yulai Accords and for any recrimination that comes from that. I'm expecting a suit from Quafe Corporation to in front of the CBT almost immediately. Said suit will cost the State resources, cost the Customs Agency - who will no doubt suffer a purge as a result - and cripple their ability to enforce the border closure between State and Federation.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.