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The CSM – Council of Sov. Management.

First post
Author
Yebo Lakatosh
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2017-04-19 08:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Yebo Lakatosh
Eve is dying. Eve is being ganked. Eve is being scammed. Eve is feeling that everyone is after you. Eve is feeling you are misrepresented. Eve is whining about stupid stuff. Eve is hardening the fork up, and eating everyone's spaghetti.

This is Eve.

P

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.

Magnus Jax
#42 - 2017-04-19 08:13:41 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
Xcom wrote:
All of the content added in eve have been directly catering to a extremely small minority of players that build a bunch of null infrastructures or rather gets to be involved in those decisions.


I thought in EVE WE were the content and content creators.
(Sometimes playing a game where the devs load you up with tonnes of "must do content" just burns you out.)

I do see changes that are of benefit to those of us not in null-sec sov holding groups.

Content creation isn't what we do. Devs add content like the base core engine then the smaller mechanics that branch off. Its an illusion thinking that we are creating the content while we are just using the tools that cleverly have been designed to act in synergy. If players created there own content it would be modding, which isn't possible.


Can't tell if troll or stupid.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#43 - 2017-04-19 08:22:28 UTC
Hmph...........

I have seen past fanfest videos, even went to it 3 yrs ago in Iceland.

The original concepts for PI i liked a lot, what we have now is less than a shadow of what it could be.

Dust514 was awesome, i played it myself and enjoyed quite a bit, but we were teased with possible interaction and connection to EvE, in fact you could not interact market wise in either direction, and the artillery support was meh, not too mention that interaction was losec only.
What happened to the ability to take over colonies and raid them? What happened to the ability to support Fleets in space with Planetary Defense Weapons? Why was the interaction not developed to include Highsec and Null properly.

Then we got Valkyrie, cool a fighter sim.....my rig to include monitors and stuff is approx $4k-$5k from upgrades and the like over time an not just to play EvE. I am not spending $600 on a VR headset to play a flight sim.

Gunjack, cool......i dont play phone app games they are garbage.

Hmmm, lets see.........ah yes What ever happened to the ability for us to log in to a central server, and then choose with our character which aspect we wished to play at that time, Ground Trooper/Fighter Pilot/Ship Commander? A portal server that then lets you log into the server of game style/choice you wanted to play at the time....with a single character.

Structures, Stargates, blah blah blah....at some point they will all be meaningless unless CCP makes it so those things can lead and be used in new areas of actual space, Eden is a single Star Cluster.....mayeb its about time we get to explore the galaxy we live in?

WiS, we have the Captains Quarters, and yes i understand there proponents against this being developed, i say those people are very shortsighted and their platform arguments against will simply stall development further. I for one would love to invade a Structure with Infantry, or board a Titan whose shields fell for a few seconds to kill it from the inside, I would also love the ability to interact with others other than space......ie assassinations, starting a bar brawl, arresting/assaulting a known ganker or trade alt,
and then we have games like Final Fantasy, or the Dungeon Gambling from places like Dragon Warrior 3, or the slots from SWOTOR, stuff that can allow for some type of gambling that is Company controlled and regulated....any number of things could be prizes that way from some LP items to PLEX. And if you do want Player interaction.....Poker, or some other Lore related contest you just have to buy your chips from an NPC, chips that even if you purchased plex with reall money and transferred into ISK would cost you more in ISK then you would get from the plex.

CSM has come away from being the group long time ago created to be an Investigation unit to combat Devs entering Player groups and giving them powers adn such to cheat with in game, it is a different beast now and mostly useless to most people.

Ganking, it does not have to go away....but it needs to change, there needs to be harsher consequences for it, if your a highsec group you should be basing out of Losec, your a pirate and criminal....these player types complain all the time about High dwellers needing to get out of the kiddie pool.....thats like the pot calling the kettle black.

Is there any sure fixes for any of this? mostly no (well maybe disband the CSM)
I like EvE though and will continue to play it, until the day something like SC might actually come, a full universe....the type of universe CCP has been promising but has dragged its feet in creating.
Cybertherion
Doomheim
#44 - 2017-04-19 09:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cybertherion
I'm not sure I really get the point of the thread.

If CCP want player feedback then they can read the forums. Sure the CSM represents vested interests in Null, but they're essentially just like politicians in RL. I tend not to worry about the affairs of either pollies or the galactic senate.

Representations of minority play styles can be difficult though, I do understand that. Sure there's the unimaginative crowd that say "EvE is a PvP game at it's core" but children love to hold guns and pew pew, it's just a primal thing and it is fun. However playing mind origami in EvE Radio chat or laying out a huge cryptic treasure maps encoded in the labelling of those mobile depot thingos isn't for everyone. But that's just how I like play EvE, and I don't want some spacenerd old boys club making that a central part of New Eden.

EvE numbers dwindle because players probably try all the various trad gamestyles (PvE, PvP, PI etc) and go "right, that's it" and unsub. Or, like me they end up annoyed by the space paranoia "spai, drama, spai" bollocks that is far too close to the mentality of a boarding house full of crackheads who ALL think the feds are after them 'coz they so gangsta.

I think, trips, stumbles and occasional backsteps aside, CCP is doing a great job with their flagship game. Since I started the citadels rolled out, and now a free to play hard mode as well. This alone has perked up interest in my friends/fam, and in turn their interest has made me determined to resub. I tend to think of the CSM as just clever marketing to promote engagement and immersion. If CCP & CSM annoy you, secede from their collective wisdom and form your own separatist movement that meets yearly in Antarctica in a giant sci-fi building shaped like Queen Amidala's wardrobe. No one* cares. It's your EvE.

* "No one" may include someone or even a fedo. Terms and conditions may apply.

I only post here if EvE is offline. Which means my posts are never well timed.

EAT KRABSAK.

Lug Muad'Dib
Funk'in Hole
#45 - 2017-04-19 10:06:56 UTC
Kirell wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
[quote=Magnus Jax][quote=Mina Sebiestar]
Quote:
I know I'm waiting for that one well known space sim....I'm gone when it comes out.


ets and various space weapon armaments I stuffed in other ppl faces I don't think you know what are you talking about.

Will it have infinitely better PVE yes
Will it be a PVE game only no it won't
Will it have more skillful PVP yes it will and by very definition more complex f1smacking won't get you anywhere.



Don't forget it will also have multi crew ships that require different people engaging in different jobs all being integral to the survival of said ship.

And that the Bengal carrier is nearly 1 kilometer in length..... that's a hell of a run.

Simply put, even if SC is half of what the man claims it's going to be, EVE will be left behind by many.

the numbers don't lie... it's already happening.

No one is saying EVE is just going to drop dead and stop existing. But it will take a huge hit in subs.


SC and Elite forum is full of whines about gank and boring gameplay.. (games where you can play offline..)

If you want an (old) arcade spaceship gameplay go play SC, if your afraid of loosing pixel play it offline, but stop saying it's an EvE competitor, Skyrim was a big success and WoW is still here (and strong)..
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2017-04-19 10:11:34 UTC
Magnus Jax wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Quote:
I know I'm waiting for that one well known space sim....I'm gone when it comes out.



This is a no-brainer really and i don't say it for or against EVE and for many choice will be clear from having a book looking at ship interior or being in ship interior watching a book.

Next gen is next

Wont waste any energy pointlessly debating but mostly agree with you.


People who play EVE because they are interested in a pure spaceship game will leave for SC the simple reason that's really the game they have been looking for. Nothing CCP can do or change to stop that from happening

I agree here.

Magnus Jax wrote:

People who play EVE because it's a PVP centric non-instanced sandbox about interacting with other players on a massive scale will either stay or, most likely, have a peek at SC and then come back once they got the hype out of their system because to them SC not what they're looking for in an MMO.

Bolden part is false: when first group leaves then second will have very big problem find anyone in this game.

Other part: kick all "carebears". Nice? YEAH!
But then:
- gankers have no prey
- so-called 'high-sec mercs' have no prey
- t1 meta modules/high-sec empires LPs/high-sec minerals/high-sec ice raise in price
- dead-space modules/ships fall in price
- ....
- CCP gets less money

So nope. It's not that 'EVE is unique and nothing can replace it'. Business cannot survive without growing.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#47 - 2017-04-19 12:00:41 UTC
One out of the four candidatesi voted for won. I'm happy

@lunettelulu7

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#48 - 2017-04-19 12:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Lulu Lunette wrote:
One out of the four candidatesi voted for won. I'm happy

Me too, one of three.

But If not even one would won, I still would give CCP statistics to think about. I hope they can look at people who voted and why they voted, for which idea.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#49 - 2017-04-19 13:55:31 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Other part: kick all "carebears". Nice? YEAH!
But then:
- gankers have no prey
- so-called 'high-sec mercs' have no prey
- t1 meta modules/high-sec empires LPs/high-sec minerals/high-sec ice raise in price
- dead-space modules/ships fall in price
- ....
- CCP gets less money

So nope. It's not that 'EVE is unique and nothing can replace it'. Business cannot survive without growing.

I mean PL and Goons invested a ton in rorquals a ton of pvpers run various forms of pve content to fund their adventures. Also some of the biggest ganks in game are null seccers running loot back to jita. If you get rid of the pure carebears then sure you lose out on some (most?) of the easy targets, but there should still be a bunch left. That goes for the high-sec mercs too, surely they will get paid to poco bash, take out structures, or just harass some group. How many of the big nullsec groups are just constantly wardecced so the aggressor can pick off people in highsec.

t1 meta mods, I'm thinking those mostly come from null, that stuff isn't even worth looting in highsec after all this tiericide. we used to have that meta4 is better than t2 stuff that cost a premium due to rarity, now most of the meta stuff seems to be going at commodity prices. Sure Meta 1/2 used to be like that, which is what seemed to spark the whole tiericide which seems to have made most meta mods pretty meh. And meta 3 was usually a decent price/performance.

high-sec LP, I'm almost convinced most of the non-SoE LP comes from incursion runners these days, I would love to see the numbers on that. FW made the navy corps worthless, and thus a ton of the viable agents. Irjunen used to be a decent hub with a l4 q18 agent in a 0.5 that had no chance of lowsec, it was so busy they disallowed PI in system, now well it's a wasteland. Likewise suroken had 3 lv3 caldai navy agents and was a thriving system, so popular they removed the belts, another wasteland. Some of the other research corps have decent lp offers but it is hard to find a good agent.

high-sec minerals, I guess this is where I'm kinda clueless as it seems they added a ton of lowends to the nullsec ore, that said many high belts seem mostly mined out so there is clearly a bunch of lowends coming from highsec. Similar with ice, it seems the systems with icebelts often have people in them waiting on the respawn.

high end loot, sure some of it falls in price, but a ton of that stuff goes on cap ships, or other probable pvp ships. On that note a ton if it has been falling in price anyways. How much of that is over farming and how much is changes in demand though? And is a price drop a bad thing? at some point a pvper is going to say hey that is pretty cheap I'm going to put it on my ship! and that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

less players less money, yep growth is a good thing there.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#50 - 2017-04-19 14:18:47 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
, nor are they popular third-party developers or streamers who do not have to worry about income given their stream of referral income.



Just for reference, if the referral income bit was including me:

Nope, I make _very_ little in game off being a third party dev. Every so often I have someone kicking over a couple of hundred million, but instances of this are few and far between.

And when I have a newbie using my referral code, the plex (or the isk from the sale of the plex) goes to them.


Out of game, I'm spending more on the servers, than I get back. By about an order of magnitude.

So yes, I need to worry about my income.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#51 - 2017-04-19 16:45:11 UTC
I always felt like the "we must help those who won't help themselves" complaint shows how out of touch the complainer is about that group.

What, exactly, does someone who logs in, undocks a blinged nightmare in 0.7 space, and kills rats for an hour before putting the kids to bed need represented?

I get that they have ideas on how to improve the game, but so do all the people who actually vote, and engage in the process.

Just like in-game, active participation is more greatly rewarded than AFK / passive playstyles.
Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2017-04-19 16:48:03 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
So yes, I need to worry about my income.


You shouldn't worry about your income if being a popular 3rd party developer is not its primary source. Though I know we're grateful for it, nobody actually asked you to do what you do. If it's causing you to worry, perhaps you should give your health a higher priority.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#53 - 2017-04-19 17:55:20 UTC
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
So yes, I need to worry about my income.


You shouldn't worry about your income if being a popular 3rd party developer is not its primary source. Though I know we're grateful for it, nobody actually asked you to do what you do. If it's causing you to worry, perhaps you should give your health a higher priority.



...

As in, 'being a developer isn't my income source. I have to work for it.'

Thankfully, it's gameplay I enjoy. The comment was entirely a response to someone who was (possibly. It may not have been directed at me. it can be read different ways) saying that I made my money off of referals, rather than in game.

worry was the wording from the original comment.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#54 - 2017-04-19 18:02:59 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Vic, this makes me a little sad I put you anywhere on my ballot.

You didn't get a spot on the CSM, or probably even very many votes, and your response is to whine on the forums and spread BS conspiracy theories about how the CSM is leaking info and useless? Really?

If you want to get on the CSM the number one trick is name recognition. If you can get that outside of a large Alliance you can absolutely get on the CSM, Steve is proof of that (and seems to have been the number 1 vote-getter this round, based on his placement on the slide show). It's just easier to get name recognition in the wider game if you get that and a decent dose of respect from within a large alliance first.

That's pretty much just how large groups work.

This post may get you a little bit of name recognition, but I rather doubt it's the sort you'd like.



No one's debating name recognition being the most important thing if you want to get elected. I think there are quite a number of people however that feel it's a problem, if the goal is to have a good overall representation of the player-base.


Zanar Skwigelf wrote:

What, exactly, does someone who logs in, undocks a blinged nightmare in 0.7 space, and kills rats for an hour before putting the kids to bed need represented?


This isn't quite there yet, but it's taking the first baby steps towards setting up a false dichotomy. There are more playstyles than Sov and HS Mission or incursion runner, although the present CSM would at least have you questioning this.

I.E.

High Sec Antagonist
NPC Nullsec
LowSec non-FW
LowSec FW
Signal Cartel types that love exploration
NPSI Specialist
Null Sec antagonist

Many of those playstyles have been withering lately, so it is no surprise that they lack the clout needed for a voice.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Black Pedro
Mine.
#55 - 2017-04-19 18:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
, nor are they popular third-party developers or streamers who do not have to worry about income given their stream of referral income.



Just for reference, if the referral income bit was including me:

Nope, I make _very_ little in game off being a third party dev. Every so often I have someone kicking over a couple of hundred million, but instances of this are few and far between.

And when I have a newbie using my referral code, the plex (or the isk from the sale of the plex) goes to them.


Out of game, I'm spending more on the servers, than I get back. By about an order of magnitude.

So yes, I need to worry about my income.

No, that sentence was ambiguously worded. I was referring to to YouTube streamers who reportedly rake in dozens if not hundreds of PLEX from their codes and who are therefore are playing a different game from you or I.

I was pointing out though that you are not representative of the player base. While your experience and input I am sure are much valued, and the voters thought highly enough of you to keep sending you back, only a fraction of a percent of Eve players are third-party developers. Yes, I know you do other things, but your background and interaction with the game are atypical, as is general with the CSM.

Make of that what you will, but it is true that the people who get selected are not typical Eve players or even experts in a particular area (yourself being a notable exception). They certainly don't represent proportionally the type of game play that goes on. If the CSM is suppose to be a voice for the players that probably doesn't matter that much given any player can talk to any other, but if it is to be a focus group to evaluate changes for all play styles it seems less than ideal.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2017-04-19 18:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lug Muad'Dib wrote:


SC and Elite forum is full of whines about gank and boring gameplay.. (games where you can play offline..)


"But I shouldn't have to play offline to avoid PVP, FDEV should prevent unwanted PVP in this game"!!!!!

I laugh my backside off when I see this in Elite. It proves that the people who get non-consensually killed and can't emotionally deal with their own incompetence so they run to the forums for help from the DEVs (despite the game having a plethora of tools they cold have used to prevent this, Elite has a freaking OFFLINE mode, not to mention the invite only PVE community\) is not a phenomenon unique to EVE Online...
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2017-04-19 21:22:21 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
, nor are they popular third-party developers or streamers who do not have to worry about income given their stream of referral income.



Just for reference, if the referral income bit was including me:

Nope, I make _very_ little in game off being a third party dev. Every so often I have someone kicking over a couple of hundred million, but instances of this are few and far between.

And when I have a newbie using my referral code, the plex (or the isk from the sale of the plex) goes to them.


Out of game, I'm spending more on the servers, than I get back. By about an order of magnitude.

So yes, I need to worry about my income.

No, that sentence was ambiguously worded. I was referring to to YouTube streamers who reportedly rake in dozens if not hundreds of PLEX from their codes and who are therefore are playing a different game from you or I.

I was pointing out though that you are not representative of the player base. While your experience and input I am sure are much valued, and the voters thought highly enough of you to keep sending you back, only a fraction of a percent of Eve players are third-party developers. Yes, I know you do other things, but your background and interaction with the game are atypical, as is general with the CSM.

Make of that what you will, but it is true that the people who get selected are not typical Eve players or even experts in a particular area (yourself being a notable exception). They certainly don't represent proportionally the type of game play that goes on. If the CSM is suppose to be a voice for the players that probably doesn't matter that much given any player can talk to any other, but if it is to be a focus group to evaluate changes for all play styles it seems less than ideal.


It's much easier to say you let the community choose it's leader in an election than select expert on subject that will obviously lead to bias accusation.

One of the thing I think they really should stamp out is the potential leaking. When you catch someone leaking, don't just prevent them from getting back in the CSM for ever. It's just stupid since they can probably get their friend in next year with roughly the same bloc of votes. Find a way that hits HARD so they people who leak actually lose something. If you hit hard enough, this **** will eventually stop.
Cade Windstalker
#58 - 2017-04-19 21:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Vic Jefferson wrote:
No one's debating name recognition being the most important thing if you want to get elected. I think there are quite a number of people however that feel it's a problem, if the goal is to have a good overall representation of the player-base.


There is no democratic system that is not going to rest at least partly on name recognition. What you can do will never matter as much as who knows that you can do it.

I might espouse all of the same positions and opinions as a current sitting CSM member, but if no one knows that I have the experience and knowledge to back that up then that's meaningless and in order for people to know that my views and experience can be trusted they need to know who I am and what I do.

The only alternative that I've seen proposed that has even a remote chance of producing CSM members who might be even halfway competent but not well known is for CCP to pick people, and we all know that would go over like a sack of hammers at a stained glass convention.

Complaining that a democratically elected system failed to select a candidate from a group without any sort of common agenda, organization at any level, or even shared statement of views is like complaining that rain is wet. You might have a point, but it's not a very useful one.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#59 - 2017-04-19 22:02:16 UTC
Orin Solette wrote:
Point went way over your head.

There are so many people living in high sec, low sec, wormhole, etc. who play the game casually and don't keep up with space politics and they NEVER will. That's not why they play. But their interests should still be equally represented because we need them to keep a healthy population in the game and they pay just as much as everyone else to play this game.

Remember this is not real life. It's a game. It's not analogous to not voting in a democracy because that effects your real life. This is a hobby and we shouldn't expect people to put the same time into it as real life elections.


No, my point went over your head. If you don't use the avenues given to make suggestions to change the game, you can't complain when the game changes. It's really that simple. I pay taxes the same as everyone, but if I don't vote for the next congress or president, I give up the right to complain about government policy. Same thing.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#60 - 2017-04-19 22:04:50 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
Orin Solette wrote:


There are so many people living in high sec, low sec, wormhole, etc. who play the game casually and don't keep up with space politics and they NEVER will. That's not why they play. But their interests should still be equally represented because we need them to keep a healthy population in the game and they pay just as much as everyone else to play this game.

Remember this is not real life. It's a game. It's not analogous to not voting in a democracy because that effects your real life. This is a hobby and we shouldn't expect people to put the same time into it as real life elections.


Maybe I'm not as casual as I think I am. I quickly looked over the candidates statements and chose some who I felt aligned with what I do in game (which is not null sov - too casual for that). From recollection, 5 of my choices made it on to CSM.

I do have one question, who are the people who don't vote and who need representation?



I have a follow up for that question. How do you represent people who don't engage?

(The silent majority is great. They don't complain when you put something in their mouth.)


Many companies are quite apt at keeping their customers satisfied even if nobody represents them or those custoemrs don't engage. Is CCP one of those companies? That's a moot question, and I feel inclined to say "no".