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Let strategic cruisers refit in space without a mobile depot
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Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2017-04-18 15:35:06 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


They are alraedy supposed to be below T2 in their dedicated roles so that state will already balanced if we ever reach it. What you propose a a blatan buff to the ship so it should be countered by a nerf unless your goat is a thinly veiled "Make sure my ship is still OP after the long needed re-balance" request.


As far as I know, this is not currently the case. Tengus, for example, seem to out-perform almost all other subcaps on many pve situations, the Proteus' dps matches that of several battleships, and so on. My personal goal, if you ask, is to have a lovely Legion that can go from highsec to null, do some pve signature sites there and come back - something I can't currently do because with the necessary modules, subsystems and mobile depot I have no cargo space left for loot. I assume that after the coming rebalance it will not perform as well as it does now, and I find it understandable.


As he said, "supposed to be".

As it stands they're already excessively stronger than their specialized counterparts in literally every way.

CCP has said many times that fitting is supposed to be a strategic choice, not a tactical choice. You want to carry subsystems to refit in a station, feel free. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a trade-off for your ability to swap between a wtfpwnmobile and a cloaky nullified bullshitmobile.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2017-04-18 15:39:01 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


They are alraedy supposed to be below T2 in their dedicated roles so that state will already balanced if we ever reach it. What you propose a a blatan buff to the ship so it should be countered by a nerf unless your goat is a thinly veiled "Make sure my ship is still OP after the long needed re-balance" request.


As far as I know, this is not currently the case. Tengus, for example, seem to out-perform almost all other subcaps on many pve situations, the Proteus' dps matches that of several battleships, and so on. My personal goal, if you ask, is to have a lovely Legion that can go from highsec to null, do some pve signature sites there and come back - something I can't currently do because with the necessary modules, subsystems and mobile depot I have no cargo space left for loot. I assume that after the coming rebalance it will not perform as well as it does now, and I find it understandable.


They are currently not balanced so you can't base your request for more power as a counter to the upcoming nerf. Once they get back in line to where they are supposed to be, then we can talk about giving them more options at some cost to be defined then and there.
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2017-04-18 15:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
Frostys Virpio wrote:


They are currently not balanced so you can't base your request for more power as a counter to the upcoming nerf. Once they get back in line to where they are supposed to be, then we can talk about giving them more options at some cost to be defined then and there.


I think you are putting words in my mouth. I am not asking for a compensation for an upcoming nerf before it has landed. I am sure that CCP's perspective is wider than mine, and they know what to nerf and when. I just think that my suggestion enhances the playstyle that was intended for strategic cruisers to begin with - the playstyle that I would personally like to use.

I also don't agree with your suggestion that re-balancing ships should be done seperately from changing their behaviour in other ways. It just doubles the devs' work.
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2017-04-18 16:21:43 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:

CCP has said many times that fitting is supposed to be a strategic choice, not a tactical choice.

That is correct. With tactical destroyers we are able to change our ships every few seconds. I think that with strategic cruisers we should be able to do so every few minutes.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#25 - 2017-04-18 17:01:50 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:

CCP has said many times that fitting is supposed to be a strategic choice, not a tactical choice.

That is correct. With tactical destroyers we are able to change our ships every few seconds. I think that with strategic cruisers we should be able to do so every few minutes.


You already can do that. No other ship can change as much as a tech 3 -cruiser. It still does not warrant the ability to switch your fit without a station/SMA/fitting-service or a mobile depot. Tech 3 -cruisers are already special enough.

Wormholer for life.
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2017-04-18 17:32:35 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Tech 3 -cruisers are already special enough.

In the talk in fanfest the devs said that people do not utilise the versatility of t3 cruisers as much as they want them to - they just make different copies to suit their needs. My suggestion is a step toward solving this problem.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2017-04-18 17:52:22 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Tech 3 -cruisers are already special enough.

In the talk in fanfest the devs said that people do not utilise the versatility of t3 cruisers as much as they want them to - they just make different copies to suit their needs. My suggestion is a step toward solving this problem.


Why is this a "problem"? If players do not want to make use of some configurations why is that a problem?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2017-04-18 18:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
Teckos Pech wrote:

If players do not want to make use of some configurations why is that a problem?

No, but if players do not change their t3s configuration at all and prefer to have several of them instead, one for each role, than it is a problem.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2017-04-18 18:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

If players do not want to make use of some configurations why is that a problem?

No, but if players do not change their t3s configuration at all and prefer to have severalof them instead, one for each role, than it is a problem.


Why? Seems to be such players are doing it for convenience more than anything else. If I have say, 4 fits I tend to use and I don't want to spend time swapping out fits and I have the ISK to buy 4 distinct ships...who cares?

Edit: And keep in mind part of the reason might be rigs. If I have fit A with T2 rigs fit, and if fit B uses different rigs it is a no-brainer I won't be changing the configurations and will own 2.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2017-04-18 18:18:09 UTC
I hope you are right, Teckos, but I think that if changing fittings is part of the basic ship's role, this process should be as painless as possible.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2017-04-18 18:23:43 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
I hope you are right, Teckos, but I think that if changing fittings is part of the basic ship's role, this process should be as painless as possible.


Many players are ridiculously wealthy. CCP initially intended things like freighters and jump freighters to be corp and alliance level assets, yet many players have personal freighters and JFs in their hangars. So is it convenience and rigs driving this or is it something else? I can't think of any "something else", but then again that doesn't mean there isn't one.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#32 - 2017-04-18 18:27:17 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Tech 3 -cruisers are already special enough.

In the talk in fanfest the devs said that people do not utilise the versatility of t3 cruisers as much as they want them to - they just make different copies to suit their needs. My suggestion is a step toward solving this problem.


Had you actually bothered to listen to the presentation and not jump to conclusions, you would have heard Fozzie say it was due to rigs, hence they are thinking about allowing tech 3 -cruisers to unfit rigs without destroying them.

Wormholer for life.
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2017-04-18 18:31:50 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:

Had you actually bothered to listen to the presentation and not jump to conclusions, you would have heard Fozzie say it was due to rigs, hence they are thinking about allowing tech 3 -cruisers to unfit rigs without destroying them.

I did hear Fozzie, of course (and read the bit about the rigs before that). Still, I believe that the inconvenience involved in refitting a t3 cruiser in space hinders the pilots from doing so, and I see no good reason to preserve it.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#34 - 2017-04-18 19:23:46 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:

Had you actually bothered to listen to the presentation and not jump to conclusions, you would have heard Fozzie say it was due to rigs, hence they are thinking about allowing tech 3 -cruisers to unfit rigs without destroying them.

I did hear Fozzie, of course (and read the bit about the rigs before that). Still, I believe that the inconvenience involved in refitting a t3 cruiser in space hinders the pilots from doing so, and I see no good reason to preserve it.


Nothing is stopping any ship from refitting in space as long as they use a mobile depot or some other way of getting a refitting service. Tech 3 -cruisers do not need a special exception to it.

Wormholer for life.
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2017-04-18 20:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
Wander Prian wrote:

Nothing is stopping any ship from refitting in space as long as they use a mobile depot or some other way of getting a refitting service. Tech 3 -cruisers do not need a special exception to it.

I think they do, because unlike any other ship, refitting in space is an integral part of their intended role in the game.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2017-04-18 20:35:20 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:

Nothing is stopping any ship from refitting in space as long as they use a mobile depot or some other way of getting a refitting service. Tech 3 -cruisers do not need a special exception to it.

I think they do, because unlike any other ship, refitting in space is an integral part of their intended role in the game.


If it were intended why was it not added to the ship?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#37 - 2017-04-18 20:41:03 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:

Nothing is stopping any ship from refitting in space as long as they use a mobile depot or some other way of getting a refitting service. Tech 3 -cruisers do not need a special exception to it.

I think they do, because unlike any other ship, refitting in space is an integral part of their intended role in the game.


No it's not. The ability to change subsystems is the important part. You don't need to be in space for that. Being able to reconfigure your ship the way you need it is a very big advantage. They do not need a exception to be able to do it without a refitting service available. The limitations on refitting any ship in space are there for a reason. It balances out the advantage you get from being able to fine-tune your ship to the requirements. This applies to every ship in the game, not just tech 3 -cruisers.

Wormholer for life.
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2017-04-18 21:30:26 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:

No it's not. The ability to change subsystems is the important part. You don't need to be in space for that. Being able to reconfigure your ship the way you need it is a very big advantage. They do not need a exception to be able to do it without a refitting service available. The limitations on refitting any ship in space are there for a reason. It balances out the advantage you get from being able to fine-tune your ship to the requirements. This applies to every ship in the game, not just tech 3 -cruisers.

I'm not convinced, since the only advantage my suggestion grants to t3 cruiser pilots over the existing state of affairs is more place in their cargo holds. This is not big enough to cause serious balance issues. Remember that CCP referred specifically to refitting in space as a part of their vision for t3 cruisers, not for other ships; as long as such refitting is not feasible due to cargo space issues, only few people will do it.
Cade Windstalker
#39 - 2017-04-19 01:39:58 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
I'm not convinced, since the only advantage my suggestion grants to t3 cruiser pilots over the existing state of affairs is more place in their cargo holds. This is not big enough to cause serious balance issues. Remember that CCP referred specifically to refitting in space as a part of their vision for t3 cruisers, not for other ships; as long as such refitting is not feasible due to cargo space issues, only few people will do it.


This is patently false.

Right now in order to refit in space you either need a mobile depot, which can't move, or a ship with a fitting service which will generally be slow, large, and not fit well into a Cruiser fleet composition.

Even being able to swap out modules on the fly would give a T3C a ridiculous number of options for escape or escalation of a fight.

Just a few off the top of my head:


  • Speed tanking in PvE while refitting from tank to damage.

  • De-aggressing to swap in Warp Stabs and a Nullifier to run away from basically anything but a focused HIC point.

  • Swapping in a Cyno on the fly, whether you were trying to be bait and hid it in cargo or you just suddenly need backup without giving up a weapon or DPS first. Both would be pretty silly.

  • Refitting around speed/range/damage on the fly while kiting.

  • Disengaging and swapping the fits on your entire fleet to counter your opponents in less time than it takes to anchor a Mobile Depot.


Seriously, refitting is stupidly powerful, that's why CCP have kept adding restrictions to it.
Rhyme Bittern
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2017-04-19 04:22:40 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Even being able to swap out modules on the fly would give a T3C a ridiculous number of options

Come on mate, I mentioned several times that refitting in space should not be available during combat or after it. This covers the cases you brought up.