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Industrial command ship ore compression
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Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#1 - 2017-04-17 22:40:15 UTC
Again I visit this in the hopes of intelligent discussions, I would hope to understand why some are against it, with citadel and engineering complexes everywhere ore compression is widely available (which is great), and yet, has not produced any 'issues' things continue much as they have except that things are better for all who are industrialists.

That being said how could giving the ability to compress ore in industrial command ships hurt anything, this additional feature does nothing to anything except for two things, make mining ops better for miners and ganks more juicier as there is more value on the line floating in space for those who don't take care.

I just want to understand why it is a bad thing, I can't see it if INDUSTRIAL COMMAND SHIPS have this feature, I really want to know the logic of why it cannot be, what does it harm?

Also, the argument was because people had to compress in a pos and it would be unfair, that isn't an issue with the complexes now.
Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2017-04-17 22:45:45 UTC
Citadels and ECs are the only way to Compress ore in High Security space, and setting one up takes a not insignificant amount of resources. It's also a static installation that can't be moved around the way an Orca can.

Right now public Ore Compression is an artifact of public reprocessing, but what the Citadel owners want is the ability to tax Compression the same way Reprocessing is taxed so that players can't just take free advantage of their Compression facilities and then take the ore elsewhere to reprocess. Based on CCP's comments it looks like they're at least looking into implementing something like this.

Allowing Ore Compression on Orcas would significantly reduce the input required to get into Ore Compression, and would seriously undercut public reprocessing facilities if any tax were implemented.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#3 - 2017-04-17 22:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
If it's not taxed now then there's no change, people who don't have ICS (industrial command ship), support still won't get this feature, I completely utterly agree, compression should be taxed, an owner where I do research on my bpo's asked me to rent an office, instead I donate ISK far in excess of what rent would be, why, because I want them to keep the lights on, I support any complex I work out of, I don't mind because I love the convenience.

That being said, it still doesn't undercut it since its free now.

EDIT; to offset some gains maybe make it so people have to use some kind of ice product as fuel to compress, maybe a new fuel block where ingredients need something from 0.0 area, spread the ISK out for all.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2017-04-17 23:26:36 UTC
I support this and a small deployable compressor with a cooldown/ore limit for solo/small scale miners ala mobile depot at 50m3

People are stupid with taxes and if you go around and look at high sec customs offices theyre all 20%
And then they would complain why no one is using their service when they dont know how to set competitive prices.

Just give me access to a small deployable or slap it in an orca/porpoise/rorq and I can compress it myself.
Last time I needed to compress bulk ore in my usual highsec system. I had to go 4 jumps each way cause out of 15 or so citadels none of them had a compression array. I ain't flying 4 jumps in a transport to compress one batch and pay taxes. A deployable is just more convenient for everyone.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#5 - 2017-04-17 23:45:21 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
I support this and a small deployable compressor with a cooldown/ore limit for solo/small scale miners ala mobile depot at 50m3

People are stupid with taxes and if you go around and look at high sec customs offices theyre all 20%
And then they would complain why no one is using their service when they dont know how to set competitive prices.

Just give me access to a small deployable or slap it in an orca/porpoise/rorq and I can compress it myself.
Last time I needed to compress bulk ore in my usual highsec system. I had to go 4 jumps each way cause out of 15 or so citadels none of them had a compression array. I ain't flying 4 jumps in a transport to compress one batch and pay taxes. A deployable is just more convenient for everyone.



I wish that was a thing, yes a mobile depot compressor, however I would also add that it need some kind of fuel to offset it being something that keeps ISK flowing for all.
Cade Windstalker
#6 - 2017-04-18 00:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
I support this and a small deployable compressor with a cooldown/ore limit for solo/small scale miners ala mobile depot at 50m3

People are stupid with taxes and if you go around and look at high sec customs offices theyre all 20%
And then they would complain why no one is using their service when they dont know how to set competitive prices.

Just give me access to a small deployable or slap it in an orca/porpoise/rorq and I can compress it myself.
Last time I needed to compress bulk ore in my usual highsec system. I had to go 4 jumps each way cause out of 15 or so citadels none of them had a compression array. I ain't flying 4 jumps in a transport to compress one batch and pay taxes. A deployable is just more convenient for everyone.


The taxes on most Citadels are *significantly* lower than on Customs Offices, because the Customs Offices are relatively scarce, it's harder to go find a competing offer. With Citadels there's a fair amount of market pressure keeping things low.

If it's four jumps to compress ore then either put up your own Citadel or move your operation. Based on CCP's comments it seems extremely likely that they're going to implement taxes on Ore Compression. Watch the Game Design panel from fanfest if you don't believe me.

If CCP wanted Ore Compression to be easily available to everyone for free they'd have just put it in Stations instead of restricting it to Citadels.
Col Crunch
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2017-04-18 01:48:25 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:


Just give me access to a small deployable or slap it in an orca/porpoise/rorq and I can compress it myself.


lol

Why would you put a mobile compression deployable in a ship that already has that function, and is pretty pointless w/o it turned on?

On topic though, I feel like compression should be taxable as it is not a necessity, and that it should not be added to a ship or in the form of a deployable. It makes sense on a ship that is used mainly in null, where the rocks take up more space, and have to be shipped around more, but in HS the rocks are so small already.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#8 - 2017-04-18 04:57:44 UTC
Col Crunch wrote:
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:


Just give me access to a small deployable or slap it in an orca/porpoise/rorq and I can compress it myself.


lol

Why would you put a mobile compression deployable in a ship that already has that function, and is pretty pointless w/o it turned on?

On topic though, I feel like compression should be taxable as it is not a necessity, and that it should not be added to a ship or in the form of a deployable. It makes sense on a ship that is used mainly in null, where the rocks take up more space, and have to be shipped around more, but in HS the rocks are so small already.


Your kidding about the rocks in high sec right...yes they are substantially smaller then their null counterparts but in systems 0.6 and 0.5 the roids are big enough and when a mining op is up it doesn't take long to fill an orca, much less in a porpoise, there are a lot of systems in Amarr space with no stations and player complexes don't always have compression nor do they allow interlopers into the stations, there is need of this feature to allow the industrial command ships to play their role fully, by keeping it gimped it really does nothing for anyone.
Cade Windstalker
#9 - 2017-04-18 18:47:45 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Your kidding about the rocks in high sec right...yes they are substantially smaller then their null counterparts but in systems 0.6 and 0.5 the roids are big enough and when a mining op is up it doesn't take long to fill an orca, much less in a porpoise, there are a lot of systems in Amarr space with no stations and player complexes don't always have compression nor do they allow interlopers into the stations, there is need of this feature to allow the industrial command ships to play their role fully, by keeping it gimped it really does nothing for anyone.


There is a *want* of a feature like this, and it does provide something by creating texture between systems that are great to mine in and systems that require a bit more investment and infrastructure to make use of effectively. This gives a distinct advantage to a group that sets up a private EC in such a system as they are better able to mine and exploit the ore there.

Similarly they could setup an EC and tax people for making use of it, thus creating a market for themselves through their choice of location.

Easy and free compression on an Orca would destroy that completely.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#10 - 2017-04-28 10:31:14 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Citadels and ECs are the only way to Compress ore in High Security space, and setting one up takes a not insignificant amount of resources. It's also a static installation that can't be moved around the way an Orca can.
...

Allowing Ore Compression on Orcas would significantly reduce the input required to get into Ore Compression, and would seriously undercut public reprocessing facilities if any tax were implemented.


If that's the case, give citadels the ability to not only tether / remote rep but also confer a reasonable (somewhat less effective than on grid ships) command boost to all friendlies undocking, with duration contingent on remaining in system.
Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2017-04-28 13:27:58 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Citadels and ECs are the only way to Compress ore in High Security space, and setting one up takes a not insignificant amount of resources. It's also a static installation that can't be moved around the way an Orca can.
...

Allowing Ore Compression on Orcas would significantly reduce the input required to get into Ore Compression, and would seriously undercut public reprocessing facilities if any tax were implemented.


If that's the case, give citadels the ability to not only tether / remote rep but also confer a reasonable (somewhat less effective than on grid ships) command boost to all friendlies undocking, with duration contingent on remaining in system.


Why?

Citadels aren't supposed to replace Command Ships or even overlap with them in any way. If you want boosts get a booster ship.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#12 - 2017-05-02 10:37:10 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Why?

Citadels aren't supposed to replace Command Ships or even overlap with them in any way. If you want boosts get a booster ship.


Think of boosts like remote reps, and you see the gap in conformability: station to ship and on grid logi to ship bonuses handle quite differently yet bring the same benefit, one before committing to an action, the other during.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#13 - 2017-05-02 10:56:01 UTC
Increasing the ore capacity of an Orca 100 fold would certainly make it more gank worthy. Perhaps if the industrial core for an Orca required a 400 calibration rig and locked it in place for 5 minutes ...
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#14 - 2017-05-02 11:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
I like the idea of compression inside Orca - but there needs to be some counterbalance to this feature.

Maybe this should work either by using a new rig or new module (high slot?).

EDIT: or add compression to the resource gathering NPC stations - for a fee. Despite the posts above. Not everywhere is the access to compression, especially in lowsec.
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-05-02 13:16:58 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Again I visit this in the hopes of intelligent discussions, I would hope to understand why some are against it, with citadel and engineering complexes everywhere ore compression is widely available (which is great), and yet, has not produced any 'issues' things continue much as they have except that things are better for all who are industrialists.

That being said how could giving the ability to compress ore in industrial command ships hurt anything, this additional feature does nothing to anything except for two things, make mining ops better for miners and ganks more juicier as there is more value on the line floating in space for those who don't take care.

I just want to understand why it is a bad thing, I can't see it if INDUSTRIAL COMMAND SHIPS have this feature, I really want to know the logic of why it cannot be, what does it harm?

Also, the argument was because people had to compress in a pos and it would be unfair, that isn't an issue with the complexes now.


The question is, would providing it unbalance the place CCP had placed the ship in? without the feature, the industrial command ship either transfers the ore to a player in a suitable hauler/freighter or goes to station, leaving the fleet without boosts.

Something would need to change.

It sounds like an entirely reasonable request, however it would almost certainly result in a loss of boost value to balance it.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#16 - 2017-05-03 21:10:00 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
I like the idea of compression inside Orca - but there needs to be some counterbalance to this feature.



Yes, locking or unlocking industrial core fitted ships is a peculiar topic for another thread. But to the prevailing argument of on-grid compression extended to sub-capitals, we should stress solutions.

Over the years, ideas have taken the format of actual ship specs. I will try to parse one together right now for our beloved Orca class..

... be right back Shocked
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#17 - 2017-05-03 21:59:40 UTC
This thread is right to posit where the Orca will land in an imminent mining platform complex change to the game. So here goes:

Instead of compressing (citadels' role preserved), simply factor in the effectiveness of the existing ore hold for raw input and then look where one can keep an Orca boosting in range of its mining squad independent of the pattern or positioning of ice itself or the inflow of third party ice. One such fitting..


[Orca, Player-Owned Acceleration Gate]
Mark I Compact Reinforced Bulkheads
Damage Control II

EM Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Drone Navigation Computer II

Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Improved Cloaking Device II
Skirmish Command Burst II
Mining Foreman Burst II
Information Command Burst II

Large Drone Mining Augmentor II
Large Drone Mining Augmentor II
Large Drone Mining Augmentor I




Having the drones zipping to and fro, hauling in at least one ice per 56 seconds (T2 or augmented drones) is identical to a Mining Barge with twin lasers humming.

One should not only increase the flow of ice with drone upgrades, there should be less need to warp the command ship in any sense of hauling duty. This is accomplished with Skirmish command bursts that quicken adjacent barges in their align and warp to dock for their own hauls in a timely fashion -- of course this is a calculation in its own right: it's good to test whether the aggregate squads' dip to m3/sec is mitigated with barges hauling (per 12 or 15 ice each) or the Orca doing the hauling itself.

These techniques and the right equipment mean the Orca can stay on grid for up to 2 or 3 hours, retaining only its drone hauls while friendlies scoot to station. Citadel compression is preferred, Orca is not experiencing rebalancing. I hope this covers some of the uncertainty. Happy mining o7
Cade Windstalker
#18 - 2017-05-04 03:10:41 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Why?

Citadels aren't supposed to replace Command Ships or even overlap with them in any way. If you want boosts get a booster ship.


Think of boosts like remote reps, and you see the gap in conformability: station to ship and on grid logi to ship bonuses handle quite differently yet bring the same benefit, one before committing to an action, the other during.


You have said literally nothing of substance here and certainly nothing that might be considered an answer to a "why" question.

This is, effectively, just a free buff for docking at a Citadel. There's no need for this, nothing Citadels are particularly missing in terms of power that would justify this.

Just rephrasing something is not the same as explaining why it should exist.

Vokan Narkar wrote:
I like the idea of compression inside Orca - but there needs to be some counterbalance to this feature.

Maybe this should work either by using a new rig or new module (high slot?).

EDIT: or add compression to the resource gathering NPC stations - for a fee. Despite the posts above. Not everywhere is the access to compression, especially in lowsec.


Not everywhere is supposed to have access to compression. Compression is a powerful tool and it consequently fairly hard to access. You either need a Citadel with the appropriate service, which is expensive to put up and run, and where CCP are planning on taxing it, or you need a fairly expensive and vulnerable hull.
Mnemo Noire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2017-05-04 07:55:36 UTC
I too think that this would be a valuable addition to game play, I would be more in favour of Porpoise/Orca high slot module than a deployable.

A deployable would allow it to be much too accessible.

If they did release a bastion Version of the industrial core, perhaps they should also reduce the ore holds of the Porpoise and Orca, provided they also allow compression of gas.

The impact in High Sec would be fairly minimal, compression arrays are plentiful. But may increase the time on grid for the little guys, which has minor increased risk due to Ganking, as they may push for Covetors over Procurers.

The use in low-sec would also be fairly minimal, mining in low sec is a relative rarity.

The impact in Null again would be fairly minimal, most big corps would have access to Rorquals.

The impact in wormhole space is where it gets interesting, but here being locked in place as with Bastion Module, is a liability. So I think the Risk/Rewards here is fair.

Additionally in WH space this may add content where we have day tripping miners going after ABC ores.
Cade Windstalker
#20 - 2017-05-04 13:50:20 UTC
Mnemo Noire wrote:
The impact in High Sec would be fairly minimal, compression arrays are plentiful. But may increase the time on grid for the little guys, which has minor increased risk due to Ganking, as they may push for Covetors over Procurers.


Except that all the High Sec Citadel owners want the ability to tax compression, and CCP have indicated they like the idea, they just need to figure out how to do it.

Mnemo Noire wrote:
The impact in wormhole space is where it gets interesting, but here being locked in place as with Bastion Module, is a liability. So I think the Risk/Rewards here is fair.

Additionally in WH space this may add content where we have day tripping miners going after ABC ores.


There's already content around this, if you spend any time at all poking around W-space ganking you'll find more Ventures than anything else, since ninja-mining ABCs or Gas in W-Space is one of the more profitable things a newer player can engage in.