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Why no capships in high-sec?

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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#61 - 2017-04-16 10:20:51 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Why are cap ships in the game at all?

Its a long story.

Short answer - The reason you have battle ships with 200k ehp and then a weird jump from that to 2000,000 ehp then 20,000,000 ehp is CCP didn't have a long term plan and certain now fundamental mechanics like alliances, POS and their 10s of millions of HP were afterthoughts.

You also had a very vocal group that developed who wanted carebears forced out of highsec for ganking purposes and demanded no new toys for that area.

Very messy ad hoc development, worst I've seen in any game.


In what way are you saying this? it makes perfect sense to jump up significantly in EHP from sub-capitals to capitals and largely they have it about right though I'd personally slightly increase carrier/dread EHP.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#62 - 2017-04-16 10:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Rroff wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Short answer - The reason you have battle ships with 200k ehp and then a weird jump from that to 2000,000 ehp then 20,000,000 ehp is CCP didn't have a long term plan and certain now fundamental mechanics like alliances, POS and their 10s of millions of HP were afterthoughts.

You also had a very vocal group that developed who wanted carebears forced out of highsec for ganking purposes and demanded no new toys for that area.

Very messy ad hoc development, worst I've seen in any game.


In what way are you saying this?

In the sense that he has absolutely no knowledge of it at all, but as a bittervet is making **** up to look knowledgeable while just continuing to look like a complete tool.

IZ things.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#63 - 2017-04-16 10:33:51 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Short answer - The reason you have battle ships with 200k ehp and then a weird jump from that to 2000,000 ehp then 20,000,000 ehp is CCP didn't have a long term plan and certain now fundamental mechanics like alliances, POS and their 10s of millions of HP were afterthoughts.

You also had a very vocal group that developed who wanted carebears forced out of highsec for ganking purposes and demanded no new toys for that area.

Very messy ad hoc development, worst I've seen in any game.


In what way are you saying this?

In the sense that he has absolutely no knowledge of it at all, but as a bittervet is making **** up to look knowledgeable while just continuing to look like a complete tool.

IZ things.



I'll say it again, Dominion Sov destroyed Eve Online's future.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#64 - 2017-04-16 10:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
I'll say it again, Dominion Sov destroyed Eve Online's future.


Which has nothing to do with the question of why are capitals in the game.

Carriers were introduced in Exodus: Red Moon Rising, just the fourth expansion of EVE (and the third of the Exodus expansion series).
Dreadnaughts were introduced in Exodus: Cold War, the exodus expansion before Carriers.
Titans were introduced in Exodus: Red Moon Rising, the same time as Carriers.


Exodus: Cold War: June 29, 2005
Exodus: Red Moon Rising: December 16, 2005

Dominion: 4 years later: December 1, 2009

Nothing at all to do with the question.

As to Dominion sov destroying EVE future:

Game release: 2003
Dominion sov: 2009
Now: 2017

The game has existed longer since the introduction of Dominion sov than it existed before it had Dominion sov.

Some destruction.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#65 - 2017-04-16 10:46:37 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:

I'll say it again, Dominion Sov destroyed Eve Online's future.


The rigidity and predictability of Nullsec rather those mechanics as such is the problem. Without going full wormhole space there should be much more of nullsec that isn't so mapped out.
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2017-04-16 10:59:06 UTC
Suicide ganking dreads against afk autopiloting titans in highsec.
No one said just people moving around had to use capitals in highsec you can also suicide gank in a carrier/dread/supercarrier/titan. (the last 2 probably not a good idea)
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#67 - 2017-04-16 11:04:49 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
I'll say it again, Dominion Sov destroyed Eve Online's future.


Which has nothing to do with the question of why are capitals in the game.

Carriers were introduced in Exodus: Red Moon Rising, just the fourth expansion of EVE (and the third of the Exodus expansion series).
Dreadnaughts were introduced in Exodus: Cold War, the exodus expansion before Carriers.
Titans were introduced in Exodus: Red Moon Rising, the same time as Carriers.


Exodus: Cold War: June 29, 2005
Exodus: Red Moon Rising: December 16, 2005

Dominion: 4 years later: December 1, 2009

Nothing at all to do with the question.

As to Dominion sov destroying EVE future:

Game release: 2003
Dominion sov: 2009
Now: 2017

The game has existed longer since the introduction of Dominion sov than it existed before it had Dominion sov.

Some destruction.


Dominion Sov is where we saw the massive surge in Supercapitals in game due to the HP buff and invulnerable POS in Capital systems.

It made them hugely more useful and vastly lowered the risk of building.

Before this there was still a question of the utility of Cap and Supers; Which way Dev would go, either nerfing them and lowering their relative value, or buffing them and making them essential.

They made them essential.

Making something that takes so long to train essential to the game vastly limits new player options to basically go with established groups, hence group stagnation and stagnation of null, eventually stagnation of the game.

Keeping BS / HACs the longest training essential ship classes of the game would allow greater turn over to who runs what parts of space, hence less stagnation overall.

Basically with Dom Sov, CCP sealed its long term growth potential and viability with a short term gain.

Captials and Supers should not have been so unbalancing to Hi Sec that it made in necessary to prohibit them.

BS / HAC fleets should be the mainstay to Eve combat, not Capitals.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#68 - 2017-04-16 11:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
oiukhp Muvila wrote:

BS / HAC fleets should be the mainstay to Eve combat, not Capitals.


Kind of weird. The way I see it is, cruiser hulls, HACs, etc. already ARE the (current) mainstay to Eve combat, not capitals.

In fact, to me, smaller ship types (cruisers, HACs, etc) have TOO MUCH power tilted to them in the game. Personally I'd rather see the power tilted more towards battleship classes and up. In other words, to me, cruisers, HACs, strategic cruisers, etc. are OP, or perhaps battleships and caps are UP.
lmmortalist
lmmortality Associates
#69 - 2017-04-16 11:37:23 UTC
10/10

-Nobody actually suspecting anything even when the OP won't address the actual arguments provided by the people in this thread
-Even with some whine- and rage-like arguments the OP manages to keep his cool just enough not to reveal his true purpose of the thread
-Just enough balance in between replying back to his own thread and throwing some more gasoline into the flames

One of the best ones I've seen in the forums in a while.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#70 - 2017-04-16 11:37:24 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Dominion Sov is where we saw the massive surge in Supercapitals in game due to the HP buff and invulnerable POS in Capital systems.

It made them hugely more useful and vastly lowered the risk of building.

Before this there was still a question of the utility of Cap and Supers; Which way Dev would go, either nerfing them and lowering their relative value, or buffing them and making them essential.

They made them essential.

Making something that takes so long to train essential to the game vastly limits new player options to basically go with established groups, hence group stagnation and stagnation of null, eventually stagnation of the game.

Keeping BS / HACs the longest training essential ship classes of the game would allow greater turn over to who runs what parts of space, hence less stagnation overall.

Basically with Dom Sov, CCP sealed its long term growth potential and viability with a short term gain.

Captials and Supers should not have been so unbalancing to Hi Sec that it made in necessary to prohibit them.

BS / HAC fleets should be the mainstay to Eve combat, not Capitals.


None of which relates to the actual question asked of "why are capitals even in the game"

You can wax lyrical all you like on the balance effect post Dominion, blah, blah, blah.

None of that answers the question, why are capitals in the game. It's irrelevant.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#71 - 2017-04-16 11:39:11 UTC
lmmortalist wrote:
-Nobody actually suspecting anything even when the OP won't address the actual arguments provided by the people in this thread

He only addresses stuff he thinks he has some counter point too.

Anything that makes too much sense, he just ignores.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#72 - 2017-04-16 11:45:02 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:


Captials and Supers should not have been so unbalancing to Hi Sec that it made in necessary to prohibit them.

BS / HAC fleets should be the mainstay to Eve combat, not Capitals.




Capitals should be powerful enough they are unbalanced in high sec :D always.

I think your perspective is a bit skewed on what is used - the headline fights tend to escalate to capitals, the big hell camps, etc. which will be prominent in people's minds but much of the day to day fighting is cheap high mobility ships like HACs (though usually t1 or faction equivalents, etc. as HACs are still a bit in no mans land) sometimes escalating to the likes of machariels or rattlesnake fleets, etc.
Uncle Dunk
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2017-04-16 11:51:01 UTC
OP is dumb, that is all
Keno Skir
#74 - 2017-04-16 12:04:28 UTC
Beast
Of
Revelations
Is
Not
Good

Posting in another poorly thought out Beast thread Pirate

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#75 - 2017-04-16 13:03:32 UTC
Arden Elenduil wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Why are cap ships in the game at all?



No, I'm for ships that everyone can fly and enjoy with dynamic gameplay along with straightline balance. I'm not for ships a few old vets fly. How many legit new players start and say "hey I'm going to train straight into a cap ship and wait 6+ months."


Four year old newbie... still can not fly a capital but looking forward to the day I can.


Trust me, don't...
Been there, done that, flew a supercap. Sold it again after a while


Have not been there, have not done it, want to fly a supercap, once.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2017-04-16 15:10:42 UTC
Arden Elenduil wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Why are cap ships in the game at all?



No, I'm for ships that everyone can fly and enjoy with dynamic gameplay along with straightline balance. I'm not for ships a few old vets fly. How many legit new players start and say "hey I'm going to train straight into a cap ship and wait 6+ months."


Four year old newbie... still can not fly a capital but looking forward to the day I can.


Trust me, don't...
Been there, done that, flew a supercap. Sold it again after a while


This. So much this. I own a carrier for one reason - to move ships around in lowsec when we pack up and move. And even then, I only move the ones I really don't want to sell. I fly it maybe twice a year.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#77 - 2017-04-16 16:34:59 UTC
I want supercarriers/titans to be able to dock/buildable in station!

Why u ask?

SO I CAN BUILD ONE!!! Big smile
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#78 - 2017-04-16 16:39:51 UTC
Rroff wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:


Captials and Supers should not have been so unbalancing to Hi Sec that it made in necessary to prohibit them.

BS / HAC fleets should be the mainstay to Eve combat, not Capitals.




Capitals should be powerful enough they are unbalanced in high sec :D always.

I think your perspective is a bit skewed on what is used - the headline fights tend to escalate to capitals, the big hell camps, etc. which will be prominent in people's minds but much of the day to day fighting is cheap high mobility ships like HACs (though usually t1 or faction equivalents, etc. as HACs are still a bit in no mans land) sometimes escalating to the likes of machariels or rattlesnake fleets, etc.



I wasn't talking about what is, I was talking about should have never been.

Dreads were added to the game to counter the new POSes, not as an escalation of ship to ship warfare.

They started to go that way before Dominion, and with Dominion CCP chose to make Captials and Supers the natural escalation above subcap Pvp in null sec.

I remember many of the arguments for and against it I believe the ones against it were right. Many of the things they foresaw have come to past.

If Captials had remained mostly anti structure and Supers mainly support, it might have be easier to allow them into Hi Sec.

But it seems CCP wanted to keep Hi Sec BS and below Pvp only since Dominion Sov.
Cade Windstalker
#79 - 2017-04-16 18:22:07 UTC
lmmortalist wrote:
10/10

-Nobody actually suspecting anything even when the OP won't address the actual arguments provided by the people in this thread
-Even with some whine- and rage-like arguments the OP manages to keep his cool just enough not to reveal his true purpose of the thread
-Just enough balance in between replying back to his own thread and throwing some more gasoline into the flames

One of the best ones I've seen in the forums in a while.


Nah, it's been pretty obvious this is a flame/troll thread for a while. I just don't think anyone cares... lol.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2017-04-16 18:56:50 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

He only addresses stuff he thinks he has some counter point too.

Anything that makes too much sense, he just ignores.


Yes, I like counterpoint (I write music... in my spare time at least) :)

Anyway, I don't respond to everything because...

1) If I did there would be huge walls of text,

2) It would be seen as jumping on and responding to each and every little word everyone says,

3) I don't have enough time in the day,

4) Sometimes someone says something that has some knowledge I can't speak to, a historical perspective i don't know about, or some experience I can't relate to (how it was back in nullsec 5 years ago, blah blah).

5) Other.