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Question: How is Hulkageddon not considered "griefing?'
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Atticus Fynch
#1 - 2012-01-22 23:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Exactly how does CCP define "griefing" and why isnt Hulkageddon not considered it?

Seriously.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2 - 2012-01-22 23:50:53 UTC
0/10

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#3 - 2012-01-22 23:50:53 UTC
Read EULA
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-01-22 23:52:40 UTC
0/10
Ai Shun
#5 - 2012-01-22 23:55:37 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
Read EULA


Support has a section on Grief play. It is not very clearly written; because if you follow that Hulkageddon would almost certainly be considered griefing when it should not be.
gfldex
#6 - 2012-01-22 23:56:05 UTC
Because griefing is hard and ganking hulks is quite easy. In case you are really interested in what is considered grief play by GMs here a not overly complete list.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-01-22 23:57:21 UTC
man i love hulkaggeddon as its always in caldari space. There is so much isk to be made.

Mining anywhere else

building thrashers for the gankers

building machs/hulks for the miners.


I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
gfldex
#8 - 2012-01-22 23:59:12 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
It is not very clearly written; because if you follow that Hulkageddon would almost certainly be considered griefing when it should not be.


It would not because those who participate properly in Hulkageddon speculate on rising mineral and exhumer prices. From personal experience I can tell you that speculating in this case is fairly profitable without much risk to take a loss instead.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Atticus Fynch
#9 - 2012-01-22 23:59:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Found this:

Quote:
Grief play

What is grief play?


A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


Quote:
Hulkageddon is an event, in which pilots competed to destroy the most Exhumer-grade mining vessels over the course of a single week



OK, so what is the "gain" for the pilots blowing up the Hulks? If you dont profit in any way (based on the above defintion) you are griefing. Especially if you consider that Hulks are not war ships of any kind. Considering that Hulks are also the most expensive of the Exhumer class, that underscores the grief definition even more.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#10 - 2012-01-23 00:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Posting in a typical Atticus Fynch random thoughts thread.

Why don't you ask CCP via a petition? Asking players to interpret CCP's rules is not going to yield an authoritative answer. There have been at least 100 of these threads already, try the search feature next time.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Ai Shun
#11 - 2012-01-23 00:04:49 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
OK, so what is the "gain" for the pilots blowing up the Hulks?


Karn and gfldex explained it above. Oh, and let me know about the Cargo Pilots thing, please.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2012-01-23 00:05:18 UTC
Except that hulkageddon has always had large prize pools available, from raw isk to ships and modules, so in this case there definetely is something to gain. Individual reasons for taking part are often secondary.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-01-23 00:06:50 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Found this:

Quote:
Grief play

What is grief play?


A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


Quote:
Hulkageddon is an event, in which pilots competed to destroy the most Exhumer-grade mining vessels over the course of a single week



OK, so what is the "gain" for the pilots blowing up the Hulks? If you dont profit in any way (based on the above defintion) you are griefing. Especially if you consider that Hulks are not war ships of any kind. Considering that Hulks are also the most expensive of the Exhumer class, that underscores the grief definition even more.


I profit all the time, unless someone else scoops the loot before my GCC is over. In which case they profit! Profit is had, also I consider the killmail as profit as it's something I gain

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#14 - 2012-01-23 00:12:52 UTC
Griefing in EVE is limited to harrassment based on race and gender for the most part. Hulkageddon doesn't play any part in that, so it is not considered griefing.

Basically, it's very hard to define one situation vs. another as griefing, unless there is a great deal of personal harrassment involved. Continually targeting one person in game, calling them names, podding them, baiting them, using racial or sexist slurs or jargon, or comments regarding the sexuality of the person, and doing this consistently over time is harrassment.

Any basic racial slur or jargon, homopathic or hateful treatment, and/or sexist treatment is generally grounds for a temporary ban by itself. I've seen plenty that was never prevented of course, and still do from time to time. Of course, I never reported it myself, as I was just passing through. Honestly, I expect the person being treated such to do so; and spamming the GMs with multiple reports on the same thing is sort of silly.

If they don't, then that is unfortunate. If someone else in system that sees a lot more than I do doesn't, then that is even more unfortunate. The fact that I don't, as someone who spends less than a minute passing through, and doesn't usually notice until a few systems away, is really just incidental. I'm not really into policing these things anyway; though I might if I thought there was a need.

Honestly, what I've seen could usually just be disregarded by anyone, including the person subject to it. If it's a regular thing, however, then it should be dealt with and probably is.

I disregard **** all the time, and it never does more to me than mild or short term anger for the most part. Sometimes it's more than that, such as a lasting irritation or feeling particularly aggressive towards like-minded individuals.

What bothers me, is the bs that you never hear about, but affects you even months later, if not years later. That happens to, and nobody ever tells you about it; they just sort of expect you to know. They have a grudge, that's fine; but often they meta-game that grudge secretly to other players and create some bs blacklist on you.

What it is, you'll never know; but you will be affected by it.

I'm sure my presence here on the forums, and my stated opinions; have resulted with me being on a number of these bs blacklists. It has nothing to do with character, integrity, or honesty in most cases; this is EVE, and the majority of the playerbase couldn't care less about that. It's usually just that they have a different opinion than you, and can't stand that fact; even more so, if you won't agree with them or conced to their judgement, and/or aren't afraid to say it or challenge them.
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Graelyn
Aeternus Command Academy
#15 - 2012-01-23 00:16:45 UTC
There is Good Griefing and Bad Griefing.

Hulkageddon does more Good Griefing than Charlie Brown.

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#16 - 2012-01-23 00:17:44 UTC
Also, I would probably gank Hulks and Macks in Hulkageddon; though I haven't really decided yet. I don't have a whole lot of empathy for players that take a Hulk or Mack out during an event like this; they either don't care, or they are willing to take the risk. Either way, it means they must be able to afford it. Besides, it does actually help the economy somewhat, and I strongly believe there is a very good chance that most of them are either botters or RMT or both.
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Alara IonStorm
#17 - 2012-01-23 00:28:24 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:

OK, so what is the "gain" for the pilots blowing up the Hulks? If you dont profit in any way (based on the above defintion) you are griefing. Especially if you consider that Hulks are not war ships of any kind. Considering that Hulks are also the most expensive of the Exhumer class, that underscores the grief definition even more.

Their are prizes offered. Hulkageddon is considered a contest.
Tiberius Sunstealer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-01-23 00:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Sunstealer
Mars Theran wrote:
Also, I would probably gank Hulks and Macks in Hulkageddon; though I haven't really decided yet. I don't have a whole lot of empathy for players that take a Hulk or Mack out during an event like this; they either don't care, or they are willing to take the risk. Either way, it means they must be able to afford it. Besides, it does actually help the economy somewhat, and I strongly believe there is a very good chance that most of them are either botters or RMT or both.

That's a stupid way of looking at it. You're going to cut off some players cash flow. I'm all for killing botters and RMT but when you're affecting genuine players, it's not cool.
Lilly Shiroimozu
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-01-23 01:07:24 UTC
You most definitely profit from this, a destie fit for it costs less than 1.5 million, the hulks usually drop AT LEAST 15 miillion in t2 strip miners, minerals and crap, thus if you bring less that 10 people you always profit.
Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-01-23 01:36:41 UTC
Tiberius Sunstealer wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Also, I would probably gank Hulks and Macks in Hulkageddon; though I haven't really decided yet. I don't have a whole lot of empathy for players that take a Hulk or Mack out during an event like this; they either don't care, or they are willing to take the risk. Either way, it means they must be able to afford it. Besides, it does actually help the economy somewhat, and I strongly believe there is a very good chance that most of them are either botters or RMT or both.

That's a stupid way of looking at it. You're going to cut off some players cash flow. I'm all for killing botters and RMT but when you're affecting genuine players, it's not cool.

To be honest if your cash flow consists of 12m/h highsec mining you're just a waste of space anyway.
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