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Change local to region - Updated with mockup

Author
Hello Meow Kitty
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2017-04-12 13:34:12 UTC
Maybe local should be constellation or something slightly bigger than current system. Also they need to change how players show up in local currently. Alphabetically is so OP lol
manus
RENSCORP
#22 - 2017-04-12 13:42:15 UTC
Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Maybe local should be constellation or something slightly bigger than current system. Also they need to change how players show up in local currently. Alphabetically is so OP lol


I like your point regarding alphabetical order on local. It does seem unbalanced.

But i dont think consolidating the local chats into constellations are enough. I think it makes more sense to have regional chats instead. I think people are more attached to their regions anyway, the names are easier to remember since there are fewer. It alo ties in well with how the market browser works, which is also limited to region.
Cade Windstalker
#23 - 2017-04-12 14:02:29 UTC
Lets see, just off the topic of my head this doesn't work:


  • In Wormhole Space
  • In any remotely populated area of the game, especially High Sec.
  • Anywhere that might have multiple fights/significant interactions going on in different systems, the cross-talk would quickly get ridiculous


This is pretty clearly just another "remove local" thread trying to disguise itself as a compromise position.

CCP have already expressed a dislike of the intel side of local, but they've also been pretty clear that they want to replace it with other mechanics rather than remove it entirely.

If you want to talk to someone across system jumps that's what private convos are for.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#24 - 2017-04-12 14:38:10 UTC
manus wrote:
What is local supposed to be? It seems like its some sort of combination between a tool to gather intel and a simple chat. What if local was changed into a chat for the whole region? It will make the chat come much more alive. Possible downside is problems with spam, particularly in The Forge, where they spam contracts etc. constantly. Thats not to say there are not solutions for that. Either players are going to make a Jita Trade chat. Or the most persistent spammers will be ignored by others.

The reason i like this idea is particularly because the chat would come more alive. This would be a big benefit to the game, especially for new players who will be attracted to an active chat. It also solves the problem of chatting while jumping. The downside is that people who use Local as an intel gathering tool will lose this mechanic, unless local is kept as a separate chat. But that kind of defeats the purpose and having two default chats on top of corp violates the KISS principle which im a big fan of.

So what will happen if local is completely disabled well in some aspects the game will become more risky. But in other aspects it will become more safe. Do i really need to go into this?

Anyway it seems that there is a problem in EVE online in that the chats are very dead. And dead chats are not good for any kind of service that exists today. Be it game, or livestream or what have you. An active chat adds more to the experience that you will think.


NO!
manus
RENSCORP
#25 - 2017-04-12 16:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: manus
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Lets see, just off the topic of my head this doesn't work:

  • In Wormhole Space


  • Afaik there are no defined regions in wormspace so nothing would change. There would just be a lone desolate chat channel for each system.


    Quote:
    In any remotely populated area of the game, especially High Sec.


    I dont see why it wouldnt. Besides if there was a need for a more quiet space/chatroom, players would create it.

    Quote:
    Anywhere that might have multiple fights/significant interactions going on in different systems, the cross-talk would quickly get ridiculous


    Is there any demand for this? As long as you know the person you intend to chat to is in the room, i think thats the most important thing. Each individual system doesent have to have its own chat.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    Brave Collective
    #26 - 2017-04-12 16:37:26 UTC
    manus wrote:
    ...Is there any demand for this? As long as you know the person you intend to chat to is in the room, i think thats the most important thing. Each individual system doesent have to have its own chat.


    Why?

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

    manus
    RENSCORP
    #27 - 2017-04-12 16:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: manus
    What do you mean why? It would be better to ask why each system needs its own chat channel
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #28 - 2017-04-12 17:08:04 UTC
    Why ask? A system is a system, the lowest degree of separation in the cluster without creating ridiculous fragmentation. Furthermore, each system has people in them who are only in this system and not some other place, which means they can expect a locally limited communications room. It's not that hard to grasp.

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

    manus
    RENSCORP
    #29 - 2017-04-12 17:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: manus
    Rivr Luzade wrote:
    Why ask? A system is a system, the lowest degree of separation in the cluster without creating ridiculous fragmentation. Furthermore, each system has people in them who are only in this system and not some other place, which means they can expect a locally limited communications room. It's not that hard to grasp.


    So your argument is "Just because"

    Truth of the matter is these players will still be able to chat with each other if local was changed to region. And if they really needed a private chat room they would just create one.
    Old Pervert
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #30 - 2017-04-12 17:20:36 UTC
    Is the OP just lonely and looking for someone to talk to? If so... join a corp. The less sperg I end up seeing the better.
    manus
    RENSCORP
    #31 - 2017-04-12 17:54:33 UTC  |  Edited by: manus
    If you join someone elses corp you get more restrictions. Its not a good solution. If there is an oppertunity to create a better in-game chat i think it should be seized.
    Daichi Yamato
    Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
    #32 - 2017-04-12 18:45:54 UTC
    The only idea from you ive liked.

    Nuke local, make it regional. No one shows up till they chat. \o/
    Speaking of contracts, its like it was meant to be. What's the range of a public contract?

    Don't want pilot's names in d-scan though. What i might swap in instead is d-scan getting a similar visual to the system map with ships appearing on the map with a deviation. The deviation gets smaller the shorter the range and more narrow the scan.

    EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

    Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

    manus
    RENSCORP
    #33 - 2017-04-12 18:58:23 UTC
    Daichi Yamato wrote:
    The only idea from you ive liked.

    Nuke local, make it regional. No one shows up till they chat. \o/
    Speaking of contracts, its like it was meant to be. What's the range of a public contract?

    Don't want pilot's names in d-scan though. What i might swap in instead is d-scan getting a similar visual to the system map with ships appearing on the map with a deviation. The deviation gets smaller the shorter the range and more narrow the scan.


    Thank you. Means alot. I dont like the player list in directional scan either. I like your way better.
    Cade Windstalker
    #34 - 2017-04-12 18:58:32 UTC
    manus wrote:


    Afaik there are no defined regions in wormspace so nothing would change. There would just be a lone desolate chat channel for each hole.


    There are, actually. In the back-end code Wormhole space still has Constelation and Regions just like regular space. There's even a list of them over here on this wiki page.

    manus wrote:
    I dont see why it wouldnt. Besides if there was a need for a more quiet space/chatroom, players would create it.


    Your stated objective here is to allow chatting. This would mean that any region with a remotely populated trade-hub now gets spammed with all the random adverts from that trade hub. What you would effectively create is a vehicle for trade-hub spam to reach the widest possible audience and nothing more.

    You wouldn't even be able to use it for the things Local actually gets used for today because of cross-talk from other systems.

    manus wrote:
    Is there any demand for this? As long as you know the person you intend to chat to is in the room, i think thats the most important thing. Each individual system doesent have to have its own chat.


    Your own suggestion seems to suppose that there is, since you're trying to play up the benefits this would have beyond just "remove local!" To quote your own post:

    manus wrote:
    The reason i like this idea is particularly because the chat would come more alive.

    ...

    Anyway it seems that there is a problem in EVE online in that the chats are very dead. And dead chats are not good for any kind of service that exists today. Be it game, or livestream or what have you. An active chat adds more to the experience that you will think.


    My point, in case it wasn't clear, is that these channels would be basically unusable in 90% of the game.
    Bjorn Tyrson
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #35 - 2017-04-12 19:01:06 UTC
    oh look, another stealth "nerf local" thread. the only thing interesting about this is how completely uninspired and dull the "solution" is.
    manus
    RENSCORP
    #36 - 2017-04-12 19:04:47 UTC
    Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
    oh look, another stealth "nerf local" thread. the only thing interesting about this is how completely uninspired and dull the "solution" is.


    Wut? Replacing local with region seems like a fantastic idea. Particularly because the chat comes much more alive. Anyone in the same region will be able to casually chat with each other.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    Brave Collective
    #37 - 2017-04-12 20:48:16 UTC
    manus wrote:
    Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
    oh look, another stealth "nerf local" thread. the only thing interesting about this is how completely uninspired and dull the "solution" is.


    Wut? Replacing local with region seems like a fantastic idea. Particularly because the chat comes much more alive. Anyone in the same region will be able to casually chat with each other.


    You didn't get the memo. Nobody but you thinks this is a good idea.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

    Bjorn Tyrson
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #38 - 2017-04-12 21:02:25 UTC
    manus wrote:
    Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
    oh look, another stealth "nerf local" thread. the only thing interesting about this is how completely uninspired and dull the "solution" is.


    Wut? Replacing local with region seems like a fantastic idea. Particularly because the chat comes much more alive. Anyone in the same region will be able to casually chat with each other.


    except that people rarely if EVER actually chat in local, and when it does happen its generally because of an interaction that happens in space... locally.
    if people are going to leave system and want to keep chatting they will just start up a private convo.
    hell most people (myself included) don't even have their local chat visible. all I can see is the list of names for intel purposes and the rest is hidden.

    Now since I spend a lot of time in WH's I'm not 100% against the idea of removing or changing the use of local for intel. but if this is going to be a "nerf local" thread, at least be honest enough to admit to it rather than trying to bury the lead. its not fooling anyone (especially with how many times you have mentioned "don't show up until you say something")
    mkint
    #39 - 2017-04-12 22:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
    manus wrote:


    PS. Reddit thread for reference with a stunning 132 comments at this time of writing.

    132 comments, and every single one absolutely hates the idea (to the point of the OP being deleted.)

    Do you believe me yet that the idea is broken? Most ideas in general are bad. You shouldn't feel bad about coming up with a bad idea. The problem now is that you've long passed the point where a grown up would say "oh, I guess my priorities and the priorities of the majority aren't in line. Maybe I should come up with a different idea that could still achieve the objectives without the downside."

    There's another factor to your bad idea: cost. First, there would be a cost to implement that would need enough benefit to be worth it, which even with a ridiculously optimistic view would still not be there. Second there is a cost of lost revenue from people who rely on the reasonable assumption that core mechanics stay basically the same. If CCP implemented your bad idea, they'd deserve the subsequent TCU crash, and the associated loss in revenue. They'd have to be far stupider than they are to do your bad idea, and not stupid at game design but stupid at business.

    Your chances of success with this idea are still 0%. Your objective is reasonable, your solution is not. Come up with a new one.

    Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

    Tessa Sage
    Long Pig Luncheon Meat
    Sending Thots And Players
    #40 - 2017-04-12 23:12:22 UTC
    Serendipity Lost wrote:
    I think dropping local and making regional/constellation chat work like local is an excellent idea. ...
    Well done OP.

    (the least you will get out of this is the joy of watching those terrified by the prospect of losing their intel crutch


    More importantly:
    a) Effective marketing does not convey information to one room, but rather, like a PA system, entire concourses of clientele.
    b) What is the radius of ISK waiting to be exchanged for items? One could argue it is jump freighters of distance, not mere shuttle hops.

    If we really want to give Local channel its fair due, time to merge it with respect to systems in the same constellation...
    Specifically, Local chat channel should get merged with Constellation while further utilizing Regional passively as a urgent message drop facilitator; "top level" pings from NPC phenomena and CSM / game moderators can simultaneously appear in Constellation when posted in Regional.
    The in game mechanics already suggest a broader application toward inter-stargate activity not just any one system, whether reacting to market orders, running courier contracts or in search of PVP.

    Regrettably, inbound Local is always last to know what previous stargates saw; and in pilot prioritization, tasking your ship to get off grid if you're not fit for the imminent PVP only delays the pings to Intel; a caterpillar effect that a constellation-scaled thread could otherwise avoid.

    If the same revised chat channel becomes a tool for chase, then the argument then extends to have sovereignty dictate who can join the discussion: standings and whether you are entering the market / mayhem to provide suitable firepower. For instance, someone in bad standing with station owners can't dock to fulfill a market purchase. Someone in bad standing with SOV holders of a particular constellation should not be able to see that channel's activity. All they will see will be the auto-generated warning and the flash of gate guns or agro of Constellation friendlies. This implies that Constellation chat is effectively standings based, invite only, and not only replaces Local, but replaces Fleet.

    Some other musings: Regional channel for players should be "listen only" with the exception of market-relevant discussion. To be sure, an in-game ISK fee associated with any user generated talk, much like contracts already have a minimum 10,000 ISK fee to publish. That could be the benchmark surcharge for a string of text to appear in Regional. Newly created contracts could have a grace period in Regional where the entity can field questions from players about the contract terms. Again, effective marketing and toss range of ISK.

    Lastly, a suggestion: jump into a system and press 'D', it pings on Regional with your ship's position. The ping, however, is picked up by the last gate you jumped through - or the nearest gate in your warp - and posts in Constellation as such: "Player _______ is actively scanning from _____ system gate proximity." Only covert ops fitted ships would avoid this tattle effect.