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Easier way for logi to get on killmails

Author
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#21 - 2017-04-11 00:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Sonya Corvinus wrote:


Why do you care about killboards in the first place? What do they add to the game? Do they get you better fights?


This is a **** argument. I am not one of those people who really cares, but I also do understand that a lot of people do - bottom line is, you don't get to dictate what's fun for other people. For a lot of people looking at their KB seems to bring enjoyment, so I don't see why this shouldn't also be the case for logi pilots.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#22 - 2017-04-11 13:47:20 UTC
My counter argument is to remove kill mails completely, your problem is solved and it does not add any areas of ship balance that CCP can screw up as they always do.

As a logi pilot why does it matter if you are on the kill mails?
I get paid very well by the combat pilots I help keep in the battle.
I am well cared for in that any logi ships I lose are instantly replaced even though our group does not have a published ship replacement program.
When they are headed into a tough fight I am always on the top of the list of logi pilots they want to take with them.
And we have not even started to talk about the free beer and pizza I get paid in for what I do.
What could a kill mail EVER give me that can top these things?

If your group does not treat you equally well then I see 2 problems.
1. you are a terrible logi pilot.
2. you fly with a bunch of selfish jerks and you need to find another corp.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#23 - 2017-04-11 13:47:38 UTC
And the people flying with you that don't lose any ships because they had you as logi know what you did and appreciate you without your keyboard.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2017-04-11 14:04:10 UTC
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:


Another thing is... I get the vibe that you just don't want things to be changed, am I correct in that assumption?


To be real honest with you, I wish CCP would nail the coffin and tell the players Logi will never get more "KB quality of life changes" so that we can put this stupid debate off and end the discussion so that logi can actually concentrate on flying logi and the related responsibility instead of bothering with padding their killboard.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2017-04-11 14:06:05 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:


Why do you care about killboards in the first place? What do they add to the game? Do they get you better fights?


This is a **** argument. I am not one of those people who really cares, but I also do understand that a lot of people do - bottom line is, you don't get to dictate what's fun for other people. For a lot of people looking at their KB seems to bring enjoyment, so I don't see why this shouldn't also be the case for logi pilots.


If they care that much about their killboard, they can fly DPS or shitfit their logi boat with a whore gun or something equally stupid.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#26 - 2017-04-11 14:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Tries to be clever, doesn't realise the exeq gets used way more than the augoror. Roll

Have to agree with frostys. If you cared that much, you'd fit to get on kill boards. Consider using implants to get better cap stability to free up a slot for e-war. Maybe it'd actually be useful.

Though since you think gal and minnie logi is trash im now wondering if youre the logi equivalent of an 'f1 monkey'.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#27 - 2017-04-11 15:27:44 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
My opinion has long been that logi should show on killmails of friendlies. That means almost no mechanics changes are necessary and logi doens't need any sort of rebalancing - and rather than getting on red KMs, you show on blues. KMs would therefore not show as regular killmails on zKill and such probably but perhaps in another color (say, purple or something) indicating that you performed logistic support rather than applying damage to those friendly ships.

This would allow you to see really active logi pilots from their KB and distinguish them from people who are mostly flying DPS ships. It also means logi pilots can use logi drones, which is what you should be doing anyways rather than whoring on KMs with your drone bay.


On the surface, this looks like a good solution. In actuality, you would only be showing the Logistics who were ultimately unsuccessful. If I do my job well as a Logistics pilot, there will not be any friendly loss mails.

If it could be done in a way that excessive server load was not as issue, I would recommend adding a special effect to the remote armor repair, shield transfer, energy transfer modules, remote sensor boosting, and tracking link modules. When you activate one of those modules on on a target attacking someone, it flags you on that kill mail. It also shows how much EHP you repaired on the friendly ship. Now, if I use neutral Logistics to keep myself alive, it appears on my kill mails. If I want to see who my useful Logistics pilots are, I now have a direct measurement for that effectiveness.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#28 - 2017-04-11 22:34:18 UTC
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
Quote:
So instead, here's a real example of something we had a while ago in our corp: The player with the most kills in a month got a battlecruiser of their choice with a (reasonably inexpensive) fitting. We got rid of that because people wanted to fly logi even less then. And it would be way too tedious to count the kills a fleet got for every fleetop in a month, check who was flying logi there and add the kills they didn't get on to their numbers. And I am aware that one meager battlecruiser isn't much and people shouldn't worry about it so much but it was a fun contest. Sorry for having fun, it won't happen again. P


Above is an example how killboards provide fun.

Maybe I'll post with my main once you guys come up with a point why the change is bad and not why I shouldn't care about killboards. Fact is, people do. Deal with it. People also care about art or professional football teams, when there's no real reason to. I'd rather focus on the arguments about the proposed change than make this about who's on whose side.

Edit: Another way they provide fun is by having the kill reports after a fight and see how much got blown up. Or to determine which side actually won in terms of ISK destroyed. Even without killboards blueballing would still happen.

I know some hisec corps have a policy of "don't undock during a war" and stuff like that but so long as ingame war reports exist that attitude would stay, no matter if there's killboards or not. A highsec mining and industrial corp does not care about their killboard. They care about getting wardecced every other week because their members keep losing orcas. And everyone can see that when they right click the corp, show info, wars tab and just click on a few of them. (So the problem you describe isn't a result of the killboards but because of ingame mechanics.)


Why do you need public killboards for that?

And why should you be taken seriously if you're afraid to post with your main?
Senjiu Kanuba
Kanuba Family Bureau
#29 - 2017-04-12 00:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Senjiu Kanuba
First question: Please explain how you would do the contest thing without a public killboard.
Second question: Because of the arguments.

I would immensely prefer FT Diomedes' solution! I just thought of one that is weaker and would work with the current game mechanics (because drone control range boni are a thing, drone damage modifiers are a thing and different sizes of dronebays are a thing.

I am aware of the exeq being used more in small gang warfare. In larger engagements it is almost exclusively Guardians because their tank is more important than the drone bay.
Quote:
Consider using implants to get better cap stability to free up a slot for e-war. Maybe it'd actually be useful.

What should I unfit? The propmod or the sensor booster? There are only two midslots.
I also fly Scimitars and occasionally Basilisks. They suffer from the same problems.
The thing is, in a meta where you need all your tank to not get alpha'd off the field you can't simply drop a field extender or an invuln for some ewar.

Okay, I posted with my main. So now take me seriously and start posting some actual arguments. Unless you have none because you don't actually do PvP (at least not in the last six months...).
So what would be the problem with the suggested change? Do you see a way this could lead to something being overpowered? Or do you have a problem with giving logi something to do when there's nothing to repair and them getting on killmails?
Because so far the only argument that you all brought was "stop caring about killboards" which, as Murkar Omaristos pointed out, is a **** argument. I'm simply ignoring the "Shitfit your ship to not be useful" because I'm not taking it seriously. If that is the way you feel I feel sorry for your alliance.
Let people care about what they want. Oh and the other argument was FT Diomedes' "this isn't the perfect way to fix the problem" - which, as I pointed out above already, is true and I'd prefer his fix for it but I think mine is easier to accomplish.

Oh, and one more thing:
Quote:
And the people flying with you that don't lose any ships because they had you as logi know what you did and appreciate you without your keyboard.

I don't get the part about not using the keyboard but I think I get the general idea. It's true for small fleets when you know the two logi pilots you have with you. But it's hard to be appreciated when you're part of a logi cloud with 20+ logi in them and the Battleships die before you can lock them anyway (nevermind finishing a repair cycle). At least let the records show that you were there!

Edit: Now I get the idea behind that keyboard thing! But I don't get why I can't be friends with people and want to get on killmails. You can probably be friends with other people too and care about stuff.

Edit2: I'm fairly certain the people using logi drones in their logistics are a minority. Out of all Guardians that died on april 10th
- 4 had Hobgoblin II in their dronebay
- 4 died without drones in the bay but had Warrior IIs in their last logi loss with drones
- 3 had Hull Maintenance bots
- 2 had armor maintenance bots
- 1 had an empty drone bay but had EC-Hornets in another guardian loss a few days earlier
- 6 had Warrior II drones
- 1 had.. a mix of faction combat drones
- 1 had two armor maintenance bots and one Valkyrie II
- 1 didn't have any drones in any of his last logi losses (I didn't bother going further back than his last 350 losses to check)
- 3 had EC-Hornets
- 1 didn't have any drones in his last logi losses but got on killmails with the logi in every case

So out of 27 Guardians 5 had pure logi drones, 1 had a mix of logi and combat drones and all of the rest either had combat drones or had combat drones in previous losses, indicating that they do prefer them over logi drones.
And another thing: There are a lot more killmails where guardians got on the killmail than there are killmails of guardians. I think those people simply want to get on killmails too.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#30 - 2017-04-12 00:45:00 UTC
Senjiu Kanuba wrote:
...Edit: Now I get the idea behind that keyboard thing! But I don't get why I can't be friends with people and want to get on killmails. You can probably be friends with other people too and care about stuff.


Neither the Augoror nor the Osprey have a logi drone bonus. The Exequror and scythe do,

All t2 logi have the drones bonus but the small bays don't make them very useful, so you can use your whore drones for something useful.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Senjiu Kanuba
Kanuba Family Bureau
#31 - 2017-04-12 01:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Senjiu Kanuba
Damn, I guess I should have done that with exequrors instead of guardians. One sec. Not gonna do it as detailed again.

All Exequror lossmails from april 11th:

- 13 not counted (not logi fit or in two cases a gatecamp alt that I know)
- 9 combat / ewar drones
- 4 empty dronebay
- 5 half a bay of logi drones, the other half was in space getting him on killmails or in bay and combat drones or used ewar modules to get on kills
- 2 half a bay of logi drones, rest unknown
- 3 half a bay of combat / ewar drones, rest unknown

Fact is, even in bonused ships the ones using logi drones are a minority.

The Oneiros has the larger dronebay and more mid slots to fit ewar for example but is a lot less tanky which is why it's used a lot less in larger fleets, if at all.
Gerald Mardiska
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2017-04-12 06:32:30 UTC
Easier way for logi to get on killmails


Uh....arebyoubserious...throw combat drones into drone bay...laumch combat drones from drone bay into space. Make sure you have hostile target locked and tell drones to engage hostile targets. So easy a 2 year old could do it.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#33 - 2017-04-12 10:22:49 UTC
Senjiu Kanuba wrote:
...The Oneiros has the larger dronebay and more mid slots to fit ewar for example but is a lot less tanky which is why it's used a lot less in larger fleets, if at all.


Oneiros is not a good fleet boat which may have something to do with it. And both the Exequor and the Oneiros have the same bay size.
Both of them are small gang logi ships. And the Oneiros is the better choice for battlecruiser and battleship roam while the Exequror is better as cruiser to battlecruiser logi.

I am sure the minmatar ones would the shield ones but since I like a math challenge, I even made an Osprey work solo.


Just so we are on the same page here, small gang means < 9 pilots.

Everything that exceeds the number of rows on my overview tab is a blobb or a good indicator to leave now.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#34 - 2017-04-12 11:32:15 UTC
Yes, people use logi drones well done. They are also sacrificing logi drones for combat and ewar drones if they want to get on kill mails, just like we told you. How is it necessary to turn every logi into a mini dominix when people are already doing what you think is so difficult.

And you should drop the sensor booster if you're that desperate to get on kill mails.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#35 - 2017-04-12 13:56:41 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
And why should you be taken seriously if you're afraid to post with your main?

I never have and I never will understand this obsession of using your main character to post with. Ideas should be judged based on the idea itself, they should not be judged based on the character that was used to post it.
Character age is rendered useless because we can buy and sell characters on a market place.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2017-04-12 14:27:24 UTC
Senjiu Kanuba wrote:

I don't get the part about not using the keyboard but I think I get the general idea. It's true for small fleets when you know the two logi pilots you have with you. But it's hard to be appreciated when you're part of a logi cloud with 20+ logi in them and the Battleships die before you can lock them anyway (nevermind finishing a repair cycle). At least let the records show that you were there!



"Hey dude, remember that time where we were getting alpha'd off the field so fast logi were pretty much useless because we could not lock, let alone finish a cycle on the broadcast? Well, just for the record, I was there man. I was in the logi wing, trying uselessly to save your ship while you died in a single salvo completely preventing us from doing anything relevant."
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2017-04-12 14:28:13 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
And why should you be taken seriously if you're afraid to post with your main?

I never have and I never will understand this obsession of using your main character to post with. Ideas should be judged based on the idea itself, they should not be judged based on the character that was used to post it.
Character age is rendered useless because we can buy and sell characters on a market place.


One of OP's argument was that lack of killboard stats when flying logi could prevent him from joining a corp...
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#38 - 2017-04-12 14:39:13 UTC
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
Hey,

I noticed on the stream today that you mentioned for the anti-headshot-ships that you're aware that they want to get on killmails too. That's great, one of the cool things about eve is that your actions have permanent consequences and one of those is that you can track your progress on killboards.

Logi have a similar problem. I'm aware that you can't give them more slots or fitting room because that would simply be used for better tank / ECCM / more cap. So we use drones, which is fine for small fights.
In larger fights drones have a few disadvantages: The distances are bigger so the targets are often either outside of drone control range or the drones don't get there in time. Or they get smartbombed or die to PDS of a citadel.
So you can use sentry drones. The problem with those is that you often have to leave them behind and when you fight somewhere else you don't have any of them left, because only the Oneiros (and Exequror) has the room to carry two of them in its drone bay.

So my suggestion is to increase the drone bay on logistic ships (to maybe 100m³) and increase the drone control range (by 25km or so). Maybe reduce the damage and EWar effectiveness of the drones by 20% or so to compensate, if you're worried that the logistics ships get too much versatility with that. I'm not really worried about logistics drones, I don't see them used very often outside of the alliance tournament. (And if they have the time to travel 80km to a target that needs repairs then they're probably not needed that desperately anyway)


No ... killboards are overrated.
perseus skye
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2017-04-12 14:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: perseus skye
why do logi pilots care or want to be on killmails ? Think of it like a c.v and you are building up a profile ,while any corp you join or apply too will or should check your killboard so it's good for that and also it's good because it will simply bring more pilots to fly logi ships which is awesome

The argument most listed against this is why do I want a full and green killboard ? Is total junk , I do as many others care about my stats and want fair treatment for my fleet participation and time spent on the field in battle with other team members doing a mostly thankless job


Edit - I Am not a killboard poser ,I do not require a badge for every kill made but it would be nice to have a look back at my history within eve and be reminded of previous moments I have been part of ,this is why killboards work for me anyways
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2017-04-12 15:05:52 UTC
perseus skye wrote:


Edit - I Am not a killboard poser ,I do not require a badge for every kill made but it would be nice to have a look back at my history within eve and be reminded of previous moments I have been part of ,this is why killboards work for me anyways


You don't need badges for your kill but you want to look back at those badges later to remember? How does that even work?
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