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Cloak Hunters?!

Author
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#101 - 2012-01-20 23:42:57 UTC
As a vague concept without any specifics, this sounds like a bad idea to me. Will be interesting to see what details (if any) ever make it as far as the playerbase.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Arisia Sertan
Wings of Grace
#102 - 2012-01-21 06:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Arisia Sertan
if you pay attention to the gear in EVE almost everything has a counter...such as sensor boosters and targeting enhancers as well as afterburners to offset webbers ECM and tracking disrupters and the such. cloaking in my opinion needs a counter as well. i mean not something over powered but i agree it would do somethin bout afk cloakers.
a cloak hunter in my opinion would incourage emersion as well as give a counter in fleet actions to finding a bomber or other covert op ship skulking in the shadows waiting for the right moment to strike.
a cloak hunter ship in any fleet formation would be invaluable.
i mean look at the navy, they have sub hunters they use to sweep around them...even in lore can you tell me that every race has created a perfect cloaking device that cant be detected unless you just happen to be moving 3bil of bpos and just happen to randomly somehow magicaly with the luck of a god bump into this cloaker? O_o i think this is somethin that has needed done for years now. i mean any cloaked ship is in essence invincible and it gets kinda ******** that theres no way in hell to hope to counter a cloaked ship besides bumping into them by accident.

you know...now that i think about it how would anyone know if CCP has taken an interst in cloak hunting? O_o is there a reference link to look at?
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-01-21 19:05:04 UTC
The counters to cloaky's are thus:

They're either flying wet paper bags or impotent where DPS is needed with few exceptions. They can't do anything while cloaked. In most cases, solo, if they uncloak they're quickly dispatched. They can't recloak when targeted and can be decloaked within 2km any object save other cloaked cloaky's.

Under current mechanics, adding a ship specifically designed to find and kill them will pretty much render them useless. And you can be sure that there will be 5 at each gate camp and double that in each fortress system.

Don't ban me, bro!

Siva Surya Kshatriya
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2012-01-22 10:14:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Siva Surya Kshatriya
Lol
Mr Kidd wrote:
The counters to cloaky's are thus:

They're either flying wet paper bags or impotent where DPS is needed with few exceptions. They can't do anything while cloaked. In most cases, solo, if they uncloak they're quickly dispatched. They can't recloak when targeted and can be decloaked within 2km any object save other cloaked cloaky's.

Under current mechanics, adding a ship specifically designed to find and kill them will pretty much render them useless. And you can be sure that there will be 5 at each gate camp and double that in each fortress system.


Again, CCP noted that the implementation won't be a ship that 'simply pulls the blanket off" the cloaky. I highly doubt this cloaky-hunter can just instantly de-cloak them, and from CCP's own statement I'm willing to bet this de-cloaking thing is something that will take time (after all, finding a submarine isn't an instantaneous or even quick process). If it is implemented, I think it will be similar to combat-probing down ships in that it's a relatively time consuming process and difficult to pull off successfully if the target is aware of what's going on.

Basically, I doubt these cloaky hunters are much threat to an active and alert cloaky pilot.

Whether we actually need them or not is a different story. As you noted, solo cloaky ships are generally pretty easy to dispatch and have their share of cons. I think the only reason this is being considered is because of the complaints from nullbears who wet their pants upon seeing a Manticore enter their favorite ratting system. Apparently ratting with a buddy or even going next-door is beyond their comprehension.
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2012-01-22 10:29:41 UTC
The easiest way to keep claoks as powerful as they are, but to stop long term AFK cloaking (IE log in, go to enemy system, cloak and then go to work for 8 hours) is to simply have the cloak have a very long cycle time (like an hour or two or something) and not be able to auto repeat. It would need to not run the whole cycle when deactivated though, so you can still uncloak, shoot folks and recloak again in fairly short time, like a 5 second minimum reactivation delay.

This would allow for enemy system disruption, as long as you are actually playing the game and not gone to the pub.... The tactic is valid and valuable, but as I have ever said, if you want to have any effect in game (even purely psychological) you need to actually be playing the game, not away from your computer for half a day.

Its a hard thing to stop the afk abuse of claoks but still keep the power of cloaking ships.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2012-01-22 10:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Siva Surya Kshatriya wrote:
I think the only reason this is being considered is because of Falcon.

fyp ;)

nobody is afraid of a manticore
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#107 - 2012-01-22 10:38:41 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
The easiest way to keep claoks as powerful as they are, but to stop long term AFK cloaking (IE log in, go to enemy system, cloak and then go to work for 8 hours) is to simply have the cloak have a very long cycle time (like an hour or two or something) and not be able to auto repeat. It would need to not run the whole cycle when deactivated though, so you can still uncloak, shoot folks and recloak again in fairly short time, like a 5 second minimum reactivation delay.

This would allow for enemy system disruption, as long as you are actually playing the game and not gone to the pub.... The tactic is valid and valuable, but as I have ever said, if you want to have any effect in game (even purely psychological) you need to actually be playing the game, not away from your computer for half a day.

Its a hard thing to stop the afk abuse of claoks but still keep the power of cloaking ships.



y u tink smart n no spam no cuntr or ys counter y u no has ters bot wil has fun breaking dat system tho

That does sounds like the logical solution to our non-existing problem though, kudos for for that!

Still, bombers need a buff, not nerf.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-01-22 10:38:47 UTC
Well, cloaks can look really cool, so i can understand that some people want to go hunting for them to get some. But to satisfy everyone we probably need shoe hunters for the girls as well.Cool

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#109 - 2012-01-22 11:59:17 UTC
I don't think we should change any cloaking mechanics at all, local is the problem that causes afk cloaking, not the cloaking devices themselves. I have however come up with a theory that I would not mind being in the game as a comprimise to any change in local.

Lets keep to the true nature of the cloak. When someone goes deep, it's very difficult to even detect faint signatures. Also whats all this crap about cloaks being detectable only after a certain period of time... that goes against everything that the cloak is.

TL:DR Cloaks are vulnerable when the pilot is active, and near other pilots.

Set up a system where Cloaking systems have a specific strength lets say that regular cloaks have strength 1 and covops have strength 2. The cloaking skill will add 5% per level to your cloaking strength. Ok now every action that the pilot that is cloaked takes reduces there cloak strength, I.E. d-scanning -0.1; warping -1.0; etc.

Now things that the Cloaky hunter can do, any cloak is effected by your sensor strength (thats right eccm) and it's cloaking strength is effected directly when they are with in 30 KM of your position with a falloff of 30 KM. That means that ships with high sensor strengths can see cloaked ships and target them, but the ships will not decloak until the targeting resolves.

Any value of cloaking strength between 1 and 0 will increase your signature radius directly, for example if my cloaking strength is 0.5 and my base Sig Radius is 40, my effective Sig Radius will be 20 therefore visible to d-scan but the cloak still hides me visually. If your cloaking value falls below 0 you are visible to everyone who's effects make your cloaking strength below 0.

As a final note I will say that it requires capacitor to recharge the cloaking strength, so ships can stay in close proximity without detection for a time, and if there capacitor dries up they have the potential to be decloaked, or detected.

People still should be able to cloak up in a safe and be safe, that was one of the original ideas for cloaking and it should remain. Active pilots should be aware that they can be detected when active, this alone will create a cat and mouse situation because now the cloaker will have to keep track of strength values and potential capture, while the noncloaked will be able to take steps to potentially find any ambushers.

It certainly would be more exciting for me as an afk cloaker, but I only support this idea if local is modified.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-

Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#110 - 2012-01-22 12:50:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Surelly if there is gonna be a cloaking hunting ship, there also have to be an anti cloaking hunting ship aswell? Same as you have with naval destroyer and submarine or how are you expected to hunt these so called cloaking hunting ship? Prayer? So far we already have cloaking hunter ships in game. They are the ones that perma cloak in systems for like 23hours each day. But so far we have no counter to these cloakers. You got to have the balance like the ying and yang.
Siva Surya Kshatriya
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2012-01-22 21:03:04 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Siva Surya Kshatriya wrote:
I think the only reason this is being considered is because of Falcon.

fyp ;)

nobody is afraid of a manticore


You may not be afraid of a single manticore, you brave man, but you should see the nullbears run for cover as soon as one is reported in intel. A guy in my alliance parked a Manti in one of N3MESIS' ratting systems and they ended up docking all their carriers and ratting ships until he left about a day later. "Don't rat if there are neuts in local" is pretty much the mantra of every nullsec alliance.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-01-22 21:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Rico Minali wrote:
The easiest way to keep claoks as powerful as they are, but to stop long term AFK cloaking (IE log in, go to enemy system, cloak and then go to work for 8 hours) is to simply have the cloak have a very long cycle time (like an hour or two or something) and not be able to auto repeat. It would need to not run the whole cycle when deactivated though, so you can still uncloak, shoot folks and recloak again in fairly short time, like a 5 second minimum reactivation delay.


But this assumes that your presence is already known. Otherwise, having to decloak every hour will give away your presence. In w-space surprise is everything. Not having local means one's presence can't be known. Whereas in null and having local one's presence is known although not one's whereabouts.

This is why so many nullbears cry about afk-cloakers. They know the cloaker is there. In W-space, noone complains about afk cloakers because their presences can't be known although, it's always assumed. We, out here in w-space, go on with our lives but, don't fly around believing we're completely safe because everyone in system is known.

CCP doesn't need a cloak hunter. They just need to get rid of local. The afk-cloaking problem as stated by nullbears will go away through their adjustment in behavior by not relying on local as the crutch that it is. AFK-cloaking is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. The fact that CCP is attempting to do something about it speaks volumes about how much they support null and even RMT activies. Removing local is the single simplest and effective solution to combating RMT. Yet, they don't do it. And in fact, are scheming to bolster RMT with a proposed mechanic to specifically nullify the only current & effective deterrent to it now: afk-cloaking.

CCP won't even give us sound reasons why local shouldn't be removed outright but, instead suggest "intelligence gathering tool". What damned tools do you need to gather intelligence other than watching your entrances & exits and pressing dscan every few minutes? We do it in w-space. Why is it so difficult in null that they need "tools" for it. The tools, I can only surmise, effectively circumvent the effects of no-local by making accessible the means to automate the activity and thereby continue to promote RMT in nullsec.

Don't ban me, bro!

Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2012-01-23 04:23:47 UTC
Remove local already, it worked in WH space fine, you nullbears don't need that intel.

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#114 - 2012-01-23 04:28:15 UTC
Needs to be balanced out maybe make the cloak at gates different form module generated ones.

Either way I want it in such a way that AFK cloakers will get killed and those who are at the keyboard will never get killed as easily.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2012-01-23 04:45:55 UTC
Sounds fine. Using a cloak is far too easy.
Narfas Deteis
#116 - 2012-01-23 06:41:06 UTC
Another solution:
Reintroducing POS module: System Scanning Array

Imagine: local removed in 0.0.
Onlined SSA gives local back, owner can choose for whom (corp/ally/everyone or based on standings).
... BUT... this module has also a drawback. It disrupts all cloaks in entire system, so no one can use them. Twisted
Nachshon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#117 - 2012-01-23 09:47:49 UTC
I like this idea.

As for local, I have a simple solution: make it optional. Allow people to close the local channel. This removes themselves from being found through local... but they can't see how many people are in local. It's a tradeoff.

Caldari by birth, Minmatar by choice. Give me the word, and I'll bring down the sky.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-01-23 09:51:15 UTC
You thinking that's an actual tradeoff is funny.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#119 - 2012-01-23 10:02:42 UTC
The thought of losing my afk advantage in my bomber disturbs me, however, all of those afk botting tengu just sitting there...
Xuse Senna
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#120 - 2012-01-23 16:05:55 UTC
WH Cloakys

If you enter our Wh without a doubt you will have 2 - 3 cloakys following you.... Then Blop by whatever ships we fancy :D

Don't Ruin our Uber smexy SB's

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7501/mindgamesceptionfinaldr.jpg