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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9141 - 2017-04-08 23:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
except they won't get away every time. Sure, pretty much all the time, but not EVERY. There are plenty of circumstances that can prevent them from getting away. I mean, just look at high sec, local is there just as it is in Null, and it's useless. Wonder what magic makes it so effective in Null? I mean, since it's so free and effortless and all.

Check the killboards, people die all the time.

You know what does work every time, without fail, without effort beyond just putting it on your ship? Cloaks.


Due to game mechanics ratters and miners in null CAN get away 100% of the time. Hunters, even with cloaks CAN'T get a kill every time. That's the problem here. The game heavily favors ratters and miners.

I do know what works every time, without fail, without effort. Watching local chat. Get rid of local and the problem is solved.

But since you mentioned killboards, link me a single killmail by someone who had an active cloak when they shot someone and I'll give you all my assets from all my characters in game.


That bolded part is only for cloaks. Everyone else must actively evade, which means at least a modicum of effort in staying aligned and warping off, not just sitting there and ignoring everything and still staying safe without any chance of your safety being compromised against your will.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9142 - 2017-04-08 23:14:02 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
That bolded part is only for cloaks. Everyone else must actively evade, which means at least a modicum of effort in staying aligned and warping off, not just sitting there and ignoring everything and still staying safe without any chance of your safety being compromised against your will.


You can't shoot anyone with an active cloak, so what's there to evade? You're 100% safe when docked too, but again, you can't shoot anyone when docked so it's a non-issue.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9143 - 2017-04-08 23:16:12 UTC
Roll

You guys just never give up on the false equivalence of cloaks vs. being docked. They aren't comparable.



Who says anyone needs to evade a cloaked ship? What if someone just wants to hunt it because it happens to be in space? That's a good enough reason to hunt literally every thing else in the game.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9144 - 2017-04-08 23:21:35 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I am pretty sure a quick check of killboards will reveal that plenty of folks die in High Sec too, hardly indicative of invulnerability.


Incompetence exists everywhere. If you're using a little common sense (primarily not putting excessive value into a ship that is easy to suicide gank) the risk of being killed is essentially zero.

Quote:
The problem you are having is that balance is based on correct play. They did the right thing, and got away. You already have almost every conceivable advantage in combat such that the most viable tactic is to simply not allow anything on grid with you. Now you find people that won't stay to test their survivability in an engagement frustrating. Go figure.


Nice straw man there. I have no problem with people using the existing tools to stay alive, and staying docked up at any time a potential threat is in system. I am not proposing any changes to these mechanics. What I object to is the people who insist that the existing tools, which already give near-complete invulnerability to all but the most incompetent players, are not enough and one of the very few remaining counters to local needs to be removed to increase safety even more.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9145 - 2017-04-08 23:21:42 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Roll

You guys just never give up on the false equivalence of cloaks vs. being docked. They aren't comparable.



Who says anyone needs to evade a cloaked ship? What if someone just wants to hunt it because it happens to be in space? That's a good enough reason to hunt literally every thing else in the game.


You did. You said people need to evade a cloaked ship.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Everyone else must actively evade


Cloaked ships are part of 'everyone', aren't they? What if I want to hunt someone just because they happen to be logged in, but they are docked? Get rid of docking! Sorry for using your logic and your own words against you.

For the third time, how can anyone cloaked hurt you? They can't activate modules. They can't shoot.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9146 - 2017-04-08 23:22:48 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
What if someone just wants to hunt it because it happens to be in space?


Too bad. The whole point of fitting a cloak is that you can't be hunted. Removing the reason for cloaks to exist is an incredibly stupid idea, motivated primarily by people who can't stand the thought of 0.0 carebearing being at all dangerous.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9147 - 2017-04-08 23:25:31 UTC
You still don't show a need for a 'counter' to Local.

It's an unrelated issue, where the only real problem is the minor loading time when you enter a system. Any more than that and you are asking for an actively tilted playing field in your direction.

Beyond loading time it works exactly the same for everyone.

The part you don't like is when an alliance's worth of people gather together and use it collectively, an amount of effort you want to handwave away with a trivial module.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9148 - 2017-04-08 23:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Roll

You guys just never give up on the false equivalence of cloaks vs. being docked. They aren't comparable.



Who says anyone needs to evade a cloaked ship? What if someone just wants to hunt it because it happens to be in space? That's a good enough reason to hunt literally every thing else in the game.


You did. You said people need to evade a cloaked ship.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Everyone else must actively evade


Cloaked ships are part of 'everyone', aren't they? What if I want to hunt someone just because they happen to be logged in, but they are docked? Get rid of docking! Sorry for using your logic and your own words against you.

For the third time, how can anyone cloaked hurt you? They can't activate modules. They can't shoot.



Too bad. Docking is specifically in game so that you can aquire assets and give gameplay meaning.

It does not matter if a cloaked ship can't shoot. Are you suggesting just shutting down your modules should make you invulnerable to interaction? I mean, it's going to make Pods and shuttles a lot more powerful....
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9149 - 2017-04-08 23:28:34 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
What if someone just wants to hunt it because it happens to be in space?


Too bad. The whole point of fitting a cloak is that you can't be hunted. Removing the reason for cloaks to exist is an incredibly stupid idea, motivated primarily by people who can't stand the thought of 0.0 carebearing being at all dangerous.



Actually, it's to enable stealth gameplay.

There is a wide gulf between hard to find and impossible to find.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9150 - 2017-04-08 23:29:10 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Too bad. Docking is specifically in game so that you can aquire assets and give gameplay meaning.


Too bad. Cloaking is in game so that you can hide while not docked (at the cost of not being able to shoot anyone or earn isk) and thus give gameplay meaning.

You're literally proving my point.

And we have shown a need for a counter to local. In sov null local keeps PvE-ers safe literally 100% of the time. Your only excuse is "well sometimes they don't pay attention, so 100% safety is OK"
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9151 - 2017-04-08 23:31:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Too bad. Docking is specifically in game so that you can aquire assets and give gameplay meaning.


Too bad. Cloaking is in game so that you can hide while not docked (at the cost of not being able to shoot anyone or earn isk) and thus give gameplay meaning.

You're literally proving my point.

And we have shown a need for a counter to local. In sov null local keeps PvE-ers safe literally 100% of the time. Your only excuse is "well sometimes they don't pay attention, so 100% safety is OK"



Except anything in space is supposed to be subject to non-consensual PvP. Cloaks fail that test. Your point is invalid.


If PVE-ers are safe, how do they ever die? If it's 100% of the time, they should be safe while afk, the way cloaks are. That's not the case, your point is invalid.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9152 - 2017-04-08 23:31:51 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You still don't show a need for a 'counter' to Local.


What happened to your idea that everything needs a counter? Or does that only apply to cloaks?

Quote:
It's an unrelated issue, where the only real problem is the minor loading time when you enter a system.


Oh FFS, are you honestly this stupid or are you just trolling? We've explained this to you many, many times. The issue has nothing to do with 1-2 seconds of loading delay, it's about the fact that the time between appearing in local (even if your appearance is delayed for 1-2 seconds while you load the system) and getting a lock within tackle range is far greater than the time required to warp out from a PvE site and be 100% safe at a station. Therefore it is virtually impossible to kill any player that does not wish to be caught, as long as they are willing to abandon their PvE site until you leave.

Cloaking is one of the few counters to this because long-term cloaking in a system obscures whether or not a player is an active threat. So everyone else has a choice: shut down all PvE indefinitely, or undock and accept a level of risk. If you remove local there would be no reason to AFK cloak, if you aren't actively playing you just log out until you're ready to come back.

Quote:
The part you don't like is when an alliance's worth of people gather together and use it collectively, an amount of effort you want to handwave away with a trivial module.


Lolwut? There is no "alliance worth of people" involved here, only a single player. You don't need elaborate alliance intel networks to notice an unknown player enter local and warp back to a station. The intel network only increases the advance warning time to the point that even the most incompetent players can escape, no matter how careless they are. I've done plenty of zero-risk carebearing in 0.0 in a one-man corp, with local as my only intel source.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9153 - 2017-04-08 23:34:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Except anything in space is supposed to be subject to non-consensual PvP.


Where did you get that rule from? A ship in warp is not subject to PvP. A ship that is aligned to a station at full speed is not subject to PvP. A ship within docking range of a station is not subject to PvP. A ship in a safespot with d-scan watching for combat probes is not subject to PvP. Etc Fitting a cloak is just one of the ways to avoid PvP, at an incredibly high cost. You can't engage in PvP yourself without dropping cloak, and just fitting one carries a heavy penalty.

Quote:
If PVE-ers are safe, how do they ever die?


Again, incompetence. The fact that some people are really stupid and suck at EVE doesn't negate the fact that the existing mechanics provide 100% safety if you use them correctly. You balance around the assumption that people will play correctly, not the assumption that they will be incompetent morons who randomly commit suicide.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9154 - 2017-04-08 23:34:50 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You still don't show a need for a 'counter' to Local.


What happened to your idea that everything needs a counter? Or does that only apply to cloaks?

Quote:
It's an unrelated issue, where the only real problem is the minor loading time when you enter a system.


Oh FFS, are you honestly this stupid or are you just trolling? We've explained this to you many, many times. The issue has nothing to do with 1-2 seconds of loading delay, it's about the fact that the time between appearing in local (even if your appearance is delayed for 1-2 seconds while you load the system) and getting a lock within tackle range is far greater than the time required to warp out from a PvE site and be 100% safe at a station. Therefore it is virtually impossible to kill any player that does not wish to be caught, as long as they are willing to abandon their PvE site until you leave.

Cloaking is one of the few counters to this because long-term cloaking in a system obscures whether or not a player is an active threat. So everyone else has a choice: shut down all PvE indefinitely, or undock and accept a level of risk. If you remove local there would be no reason to AFK cloak, if you aren't actively playing you just log out until you're ready to come back.

Quote:
The part you don't like is when an alliance's worth of people gather together and use it collectively, an amount of effort you want to handwave away with a trivial module.


Lolwut? There is no "alliance worth of people" involved here, only a single player. You don't need elaborate alliance intel networks to notice an unknown player enter local and warp back to a station. The intel network only increases the advance warning time to the point that even the most incompetent players can escape, no matter how careless they are. I've done plenty of zero-risk carebearing in 0.0 in a one-man corp, with local as my only intel source.


Talk to Teckos about the loading time. He brings it up constantly when anyone suggests that local works the same for everyone. I just accept he is right on that one point, and it can be addressed easily.

Local is a game condition. Asking for a counter to it is like asking for a counter to asteroids or how shiny the local star is.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9155 - 2017-04-08 23:36:28 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Local is a game condition. Asking for a counter to it is like asking for a counter to asteroids or how shiny the local star is.


Sorry, but that's ****ing stupid. Local is a tool that people use, not just an aesthetic item like how shiny the star is. If cloaking as a tool requires a counter because everything needs a counter then so does local.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9156 - 2017-04-08 23:37:54 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Except anything in space is supposed to be subject to non-consensual PvP.


Where did you get that rule from? A ship in warp is not subject to PvP. A ship that is aligned to a station at full speed is not subject to PvP. A ship within docking range of a station is not subject to PvP. A ship in a safespot with d-scan watching for combat probes is not subject to PvP. Etc Fitting a cloak is just one of the ways to avoid PvP, at an incredibly high cost. You can't engage in PvP yourself without dropping cloak, and just fitting one carries a heavy penalty.

Quote:
If PVE-ers are safe, how do they ever die?


Again, incompetence. The fact that some people are really stupid and suck at EVE doesn't negate the fact that the existing mechanics provide 100% safety if you use them correctly. You balance around the assumption that people will play correctly, not the assumption that they will be incompetent morons who randomly commit suicide.



If they are safe 100% of the time, incompetence isn't a factor. You can't claim it's safe when it isn't.


In point of fact, other than in warp you are subject to PvP in all of your listed circumstances. What you have a problem with is that those people can quickly leave the play area. They can still be located, locked, and modules activated on them, or bumped around, or any other sort of interaction possible in game so long as they remain in the play area.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9157 - 2017-04-08 23:57:32 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
If they are safe 100% of the time, incompetence isn't a factor. You can't claim it's safe when it isn't.


Oh FFS, is this idiotic nitpicking the best you've got? Nothing is safe if you assume incompetence. Being cloaked is not, because you could decloak yourself and get killed. Even being docked in station isn't 100% safety, because you could accidentally hit the "trash" button. But if we assume competent play by everyone involved it's 100% safety.

Quote:
In point of fact, other than in warp you are subject to PvP in all of your listed circumstances. What you have a problem with is that those people can quickly leave the play area. They can still be located, locked, and modules activated on them, or bumped around, or any other sort of interaction possible in game so long as they remain in the play area.


And because leaving the play area is instant (literally less than one second between clicking "leave" and being immune to PvP) this translates into 100% safety. You will never successfully interact with those people if they don't want to be interacted with.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9158 - 2017-04-09 02:49:29 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
If they are safe 100% of the time, incompetence isn't a factor. You can't claim it's safe when it isn't.


Oh FFS, is this idiotic nitpicking the best you've got? Nothing is safe if you assume incompetence. Being cloaked is not, because you could decloak yourself and get killed. Even being docked in station isn't 100% safety, because you could accidentally hit the "trash" button. But if we assume competent play by everyone involved it's 100% safety.

Quote:
In point of fact, other than in warp you are subject to PvP in all of your listed circumstances. What you have a problem with is that those people can quickly leave the play area. They can still be located, locked, and modules activated on them, or bumped around, or any other sort of interaction possible in game so long as they remain in the play area.


And because leaving the play area is instant (literally less than one second between clicking "leave" and being immune to PvP) this translates into 100% safety. You will never successfully interact with those people if they don't want to be interacted with.



It's not nitpicking. It's a vital difference between the safety a cloak provides, and the 'safety' you claim local provides. With a cloak you must opt in to risky behavior. Without a cloak, just being in space is inherently risky and you must opt out in order to be safe. Thus you can afk with unlimited impunity under a cloak, whereas going afk without one is a death sentence if an enemy shows up.

Leaving space is supposed to be safe. It's one of the very most fundamental parts of gameplay--- in space is not safe, out of space is safe.


If you are easily confused, you can try and draw the false equivalence with cloaks being like docking, but it's been done to death. Docks are not a module. Local is not a module. Modules are not the same as fundamental game conditions.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9159 - 2017-04-09 04:21:58 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Talk to Teckos about the loading time. He brings it up constantly when anyone suggests that local works the same for everyone. I just accept he is right on that one point, and it can be addressed easily.

Local is a game condition. Asking for a counter to it is like asking for a counter to asteroids or how shiny the local star is.


If 2 players are in system local works exactly the same. It does not when one player jumps into a system where another player is in that system. As you are watching the warp tunnel and waiting for grid to load, watch local, you'll see the guy already in system...but you cannot do anything as you are waiting for the grid to load. The player already in system has the grid loaded and can GTFO.

You can verify this with a single account and a buddy. Or you can verify it with 2 accounts both logged in at the same time. Many people have verified this.

Further I don't think it can be fixed other than by having the person jumping not show in local for a period of time--e.g. you don't show so long at your jump cloak is active. Once it drops you are visible in local and local is visible to you. That would "fix it".

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9160 - 2017-04-09 04:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Roll

You guys just never give up on the false equivalence of cloaks vs. being docked. They aren't comparable.



Who says anyone needs to evade a cloaked ship? What if someone just wants to hunt it because it happens to be in space? That's a good enough reason to hunt literally every thing else in the game.


Weren't you making that comparison at one time? That being cloaked is like being as safe as docked? Never seen anyone killed while docked.....

Edit:

Interesting.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaks are too safe because they allow 100% safety beyond even that of being docked for unlimited and uninterruptible periods of time.


Ooops.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
If being equivalent to docked justifies it, then make it equivalent to docked.


Oh dear.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
See... The argument has been that the cloak is supposed to make you safe, and it's safety is justified by the ship being harmless. Basically being cloaked is like being docked except mobile.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online