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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Assistant C
Anger Management
#9121 - 2017-04-03 17:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Assistant C
AFK Cloaking been broken for years ... its just that CCP lacks the balls to fix it.

If you cloak let local disappear ..... at least they have to scan, de-cloak, launch probes to find people.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#9122 - 2017-04-06 08:47:59 UTC
Albert Madullier wrote:
cloaky camping is the worst mechanic i have ever come across in a game, if you're actively hunting then fair enough but to have a mechanic that just stops people logging in and playing your game is beyond ********


Local means there is no such thing as 'active' hunting; you can only catch what allows itself be caught, what willfully ignores danger. No matter how good of a hunter you are, no matter how 'active' you are, you cannot beat local. What good really is a covert cloak if local still tips off an entire region to your presence?

Cloaky camping is the only counter to local.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9123 - 2017-04-06 12:57:32 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Albert Madullier wrote:
cloaky camping is the worst mechanic i have ever come across in a game, if you're actively hunting then fair enough but to have a mechanic that just stops people logging in and playing your game is beyond ********


Local means there is no such thing as 'active' hunting; you can only catch what allows itself be caught, what willfully ignores danger. No matter how good of a hunter you are, no matter how 'active' you are, you cannot beat local. What good really is a covert cloak if local still tips off an entire region to your presence?

Cloaky camping is the only counter to local.



You are actually backward on that. It is the cloaked pilot that is safe unless he actively ignores danger *and* decides to engage in risk.

The people you are hunting just have to not be paying attention, or have something distracting them either in game or real life, or stuck on something, or tackled, or whatever.

The thing you are complaining about is not being able to circumvent the collective efforts of everyone residing in a region with trivial effort, expense, or risk to your own assets.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#9124 - 2017-04-06 17:24:47 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Albert Madullier wrote:
cloaky camping is the worst mechanic i have ever come across in a game, if you're actively hunting then fair enough but to have a mechanic that just stops people logging in and playing your game is beyond ********


Local means there is no such thing as 'active' hunting; you can only catch what allows itself be caught, what willfully ignores danger. No matter how good of a hunter you are, no matter how 'active' you are, you cannot beat local. What good really is a covert cloak if local still tips off an entire region to your presence?

Cloaky camping is the only counter to local.



You are actually backward on that. It is the cloaked pilot that is safe unless he actively ignores danger *and* decides to engage in risk.

The people you are hunting just have to not be paying attention, or have something distracting them either in game or real life, or stuck on something, or tackled, or whatever.

The thing you are complaining about is not being able to circumvent the collective efforts of everyone residing in a region with trivial effort, expense, or risk to your own assets.



I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.

A cloak helps keep you safe, but regions that actually defend their space have means of catching cloaky hunters, even those that are nullified or extremely agile, or both.

Null is supposed to be dangerous. Thanks to a combination of local being instant, free, and reliable intel, mixed with the current state of ratting and mining ships, null is not dangerous at all. I like the big words 'collective efforts', but in all honesty it takes almost zero effort and certainly no risk to provide the safety built like this, which is the sorta the point.

The bears want to bear, and the hunters want to hunt, but there isn't really a game between them to play, where there should be. Currently 99.99% is controlled by the bears, there is nothing a hunter can do to impose the risk null is supposed to have if local retains it's current state.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9125 - 2017-04-06 18:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Albert Madullier wrote:
cloaky camping is the worst mechanic i have ever come across in a game, if you're actively hunting then fair enough but to have a mechanic that just stops people logging in and playing your game is beyond ********


Local means there is no such thing as 'active' hunting; you can only catch what allows itself be caught, what willfully ignores danger. No matter how good of a hunter you are, no matter how 'active' you are, you cannot beat local. What good really is a covert cloak if local still tips off an entire region to your presence?

Cloaky camping is the only counter to local.



You are actually backward on that. It is the cloaked pilot that is safe unless he actively ignores danger *and* decides to engage in risk.

The people you are hunting just have to not be paying attention, or have something distracting them either in game or real life, or stuck on something, or tackled, or whatever.

The thing you are complaining about is not being able to circumvent the collective efforts of everyone residing in a region with trivial effort, expense, or risk to your own assets.


When you write stuff like this Mike you make it painfully obvious that you have never used a cloaking ship for hunting. And yes, by not paying attention they "let" the hunter catch them. And when you engage you never know when or if help is going to show up.

Again, go out there and try it. See it from both sides vs. your stilted one sided view.

Oh, and about that "collective effort" yes it takes collective effort, but you are not arguing that point except for taking space. You do not want to use that "collective effort" for keeping yourself safe while ratting. Getting in a standing fleet and get on comms and when you get tackled bleat for help, so others in system can warp to you. Nobody need sit around doing nothing, they can rat, mine, etc.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lesser Severasse
Ganked in the Flank
#9126 - 2017-04-07 13:01:37 UTC
How about a Ship that specializes in hunting cloaky ships.

Maybe something with a mechanic slower than probe scanning.
Or
A mine laying ship that the mines only activate on cloaked ships.

or maybe eve just needs a mechanic like wow that if you afk then you are logged out after a few min.
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9127 - 2017-04-07 15:49:19 UTC
Lesser Severasse wrote:
How about a Ship that specializes in hunting cloaky ships.

Maybe something with a mechanic slower than probe scanning.
Or
A mine laying ship that the mines only activate on cloaked ships.

or maybe eve just needs a mechanic like wow that if you afk then you are logged out after a few min.



Sure, if I can get a ship that specializes in kicking people out of stations, an POSes.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9128 - 2017-04-07 17:12:35 UTC
Lesser Severasse wrote:
How about a Ship that specializes in hunting cloaky ships.

Maybe something with a mechanic slower than probe scanning.
Or
A mine laying ship that the mines only activate on cloaked ships.

or maybe eve just needs a mechanic like wow that if you afk then you are logged out after a few min.



How about no. There are ways to deal with this, people are just lazy.

BTW, mines used to be in the game, IIRC there are still some in game but are useless and are collectors items. The problem is mines will be bad for things like fleet fights etc.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9129 - 2017-04-07 17:13:23 UTC
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Lesser Severasse wrote:
How about a Ship that specializes in hunting cloaky ships.

Maybe something with a mechanic slower than probe scanning.
Or
A mine laying ship that the mines only activate on cloaked ships.

or maybe eve just needs a mechanic like wow that if you afk then you are logged out after a few min.



Sure, if I can get a ship that specializes in kicking people out of stations, an POSes.


Yeah, that'd be cool too. I want to PVP those players. [/sarcasm]

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9130 - 2017-04-07 21:53:19 UTC
Lesser Severasse wrote:
How about a Ship that specializes in hunting cloaky ships.

Maybe something with a mechanic slower than probe scanning.
Or
A mine laying ship that the mines only activate on cloaked ships.

or maybe eve just needs a mechanic like wow that if you afk then you are logged out after a few min.



You will never get any compromise on this.

They have it exactly as they want it, and any movement must be even more in their favor.

Any suggestion otherwise will be met with a stock folio of fallacies, conversational loops, and general noise until you and all like you go away...usually right on out of the game. They don't care, the game is cool enough that there are always new people to run out in the same fashion.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9131 - 2017-04-07 22:26:24 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:



I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.

A cloak helps keep you safe, but regions that actually defend their space have means of catching cloaky hunters, even those that are nullified or extremely agile, or both.

Null is supposed to be dangerous. Thanks to a combination of local being instant, free, and reliable intel, mixed with the current state of ratting and mining ships, null is not dangerous at all. I like the big words 'collective efforts', but in all honesty it takes almost zero effort and certainly no risk to provide the safety built like this, which is the sorta the point.

The bears want to bear, and the hunters want to hunt, but there isn't really a game between them to play, where there should be. Currently 99.99% is controlled by the bears, there is nothing a hunter can do to impose the risk null is supposed to have if local retains it's current state.


We probably aren't playing the same game.

A cloak in use keeps you utterly safe until you shut it off, or allow circumstances to occur that cause it to fail---- all of which is entirely in your control. If there was a way to actively hunt a cloaked ship, this thread would not exist. You can hunt ships which have a cloak fit in it's high slot, but not one actually using one. If there is a way to find a cloak against it's will, I am eager to hear it. If you just mean the same crap about camping gates and such, well, nice try, but that fallacy was debunked a long time ago. EVE is supposed to be about Non-consensual PvP.

Here is a handy little reference for you concerning safety:

Are you out in space (not in a station, tethered to something, behind POS shields)? These areas were intended to be safe, allowing people to aquire resources/assets and give gameplay meaning. In the case of both the target and hunter the answer is yes, and therefore both should be at risk for non-consensual PvP.

Are you sitting under an active cloak? If yes, you are completely safe. You cannot even be scanned so that someone can get on grid and attempt to fly around and somehow accidently trip over you. The only way a ship under a cloak can be put in danger is if the pilot makes a poor choice of where to sit, or if he chooses to engage in risky behavior. If you are not under a cloak, you are still at risk for non-consensual PvP. This is where cloaks have an issue. It has nothing to do with people using them to camp, it has everything to do with people being completely safe while out in space.

Your complaint appears to be that people that don't want to play with you leave the play area before you can engage them. That's working as intended. Sorry. Try adding more to their gameplay than nuisance.

Local has nothing to do with it. Sure, it's 'free', instant, and reliable. That does not make it usable--- for instance it's pretty useless in high sec and even in many parts of low sec. It only changes in null sec when enormous amounts of time and effort are spent to keep it in a clear and useable state....so Free isn't really all that free in this case, but it does not cost ISK. Just time and effort, the only things in game of real, actual value.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9132 - 2017-04-07 22:50:27 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


We probably aren't playing the same game.

A cloak in use keeps you utterly safe until you shut it off, or allow circumstances to occur that cause it to fail---- all of which is entirely in your control. If there was a way to actively hunt a cloaked ship, this thread would not exist. You can hunt ships which have a cloak fit in it's high slot, but not one actually using one. If there is a way to find a cloak against it's will, I am eager to hear it. If you just mean the same crap about camping gates and such, well, nice try, but that fallacy was debunked a long time ago. EVE is supposed to be about Non-consensual PvP.

Here is a handy little reference for you concerning safety:

Are you out in space (not in a station, tethered to something, behind POS shields)? These areas were intended to be safe, allowing people to aquire resources/assets and give gameplay meaning. In the case of both the target and hunter the answer is yes, and therefore both should be at risk for non-consensual PvP.

Are you sitting under an active cloak? If yes, you are completely safe. You cannot even be scanned so that someone can get on grid and attempt to fly around and somehow accidently trip over you. The only way a ship under a cloak can be put in danger is if the pilot makes a poor choice of where to sit, or if he chooses to engage in risky behavior. If you are not under a cloak, you are still at risk for non-consensual PvP. This is where cloaks have an issue. It has nothing to do with people using them to camp, it has everything to do with people being completely safe while out in space.

Your complaint appears to be that people that don't want to play with you leave the play area before you can engage them. That's working as intended. Sorry. Try adding more to their gameplay than nuisance.

Local has nothing to do with it. Sure, it's 'free', instant, and reliable. That does not make it usable--- for instance it's pretty useless in high sec and even in many parts of low sec. It only changes in null sec when enormous amounts of time and effort are spent to keep it in a clear and useable state....so Free isn't really all that free in this case, but it does not cost ISK. Just time and effort, the only things in game of real, actual value.


No you aren’t playing the same game as us. Vic hunts. I hunt. I also do lots of “PVE” stuff too (don’t know about Vic). I run PI farms, do invention, and have even been known to mine on occasion. I see the issue from both sides. Having used a cloak to hunt and having been both hunted and camped by people using cloaks. So, why am I not whining?

A cloak will only keep you “utterly safe” in a trivial way: at a safe spot that nobody else knows about. And to maintain that safety you must never move from that spot (well, warp somewhere). That’s it. You can use a cloak in many other instances, but you can be decloaked—i.e. another player shuts it off. Good interceptor pilots can sometimes do it. A bubble with cans can do it. Etc. And guess what…these are examples of cloaked ships out in space. Ships that are undocked.

And there is less of an argument for the perfect safety in a station than there is a cloaked ship at a safe. While in that station you can do stuff that affects the wider game. I can park an alt in Jita and station trade and never ever undock and make ISK. I can’t do that if I am cloaked at a secret safe down in Esoteria or wherever.

AFK cloaking has everything to do with local chat. No local chat no AFK cloaking. There is no point to it. And people do use local chat for intel, and when they do they get away every single time. To catch someone you have to rely on them making the mistake of not checking local frequently enough. And nice try on attempting to put a cost to local, but it is there whether you own the space or not, so nope. No dice.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9133 - 2017-04-08 00:10:58 UTC
No, they don't get away every time.

They might be afk, distracted, impeded by stuff in space, tackled by rats, or who knows what else.

They get away almost every time, due to circumstances the hunter cannot control, but that's not the same thing.

Local being useable requires lots of time and effort. That time and effort isn't free. It's not even cheap. It's certainly not as trivial as the 'effort' involved in training for a cloak.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9134 - 2017-04-08 00:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Mike Voidstar wrote:
No, they don't get away every time.

They might be afk, distracted, impeded by stuff in space, tackled by rats, or who knows what else.

They get away almost every time, due to circumstances the hunter cannot control, but that's not the same thing.

Local being useable requires lots of time and effort. That time and effort isn't free. It's not even cheap. It's certainly not as trivial as the 'effort' involved in training for a cloak.


So you're saying there's an in game mechanic (local) that lets someone get away every time if they are paying attention (your words, not mine), and there's an in game mechanic that gives someone a chance at intel (not of killing someone, but intel only), and you want to nerf the second of the two?

Do you know what balance is?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9135 - 2017-04-08 04:20:12 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
No, they don't get away every time.

They might be afk, distracted, impeded by stuff in space, tackled by rats, or who knows what else.

They get away almost every time, due to circumstances the hunter cannot control, but that's not the same thing.

Local being useable requires lots of time and effort. That time and effort isn't free. It's not even cheap. It's certainly not as trivial as the 'effort' involved in training for a cloak.


Read what I wrote, I said if they are using local--i.e. watching it when a hostile comes in they will get away every time.

This was covered probably 200 pages ago, the outcome where the ratter and the hunter are doing "everything correctly" results in no actual player interaction other than seeing each other in local. That's it.

Local requires very little effort or time. You do not have to have sov to use local, even the hunter can use it.

Tell me did you have to take the system to get access? No. Did you have to anchor a structure? No. Do you have to fuel something? No. Can it be taken away? No. What exactly did you do to get local? You downloaded the client and set up a character. That's it. That is all you did, nothing more.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9136 - 2017-04-08 19:35:30 UTC
except they won't get away every time. Sure, pretty much all the time, but not EVERY. There are plenty of circumstances that can prevent them from getting away. I mean, just look at high sec, local is there just as it is in Null, and it's useless. Wonder what magic makes it so effective in Null? I mean, since it's so free and effortless and all.

Check the killboards, people die all the time.

You know what does work every time, without fail, without effort beyond just putting it on your ship? Cloaks.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9137 - 2017-04-08 20:57:03 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Wonder what magic makes it so effective in Null?


The fact that there are actually threats in nullsec. Local works the same everywhere else, it just doesn't matter because you're either completely invulnerable (highsec) or doing very fast PvE where you're never staying in one place long enough for local to be more informative than d-scan (lowsec).

Quote:
Check the killboards, people die all the time.


Yes, people screw up and die. However, balance should be based on the assumption of correct play, not mistakes.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9138 - 2017-04-08 21:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Mike Voidstar wrote:
except they won't get away every time. Sure, pretty much all the time, but not EVERY. There are plenty of circumstances that can prevent them from getting away. I mean, just look at high sec, local is there just as it is in Null, and it's useless. Wonder what magic makes it so effective in Null? I mean, since it's so free and effortless and all.

Check the killboards, people die all the time.

You know what does work every time, without fail, without effort beyond just putting it on your ship? Cloaks.


Due to game mechanics ratters and miners in null CAN get away 100% of the time. Hunters, even with cloaks CAN'T get a kill every time. That's the problem here. The game heavily favors ratters and miners.

I do know what works every time, without fail, without effort. Watching local chat. Get rid of local and the problem is solved.

But since you mentioned killboards, link me a single killmail by someone who had an active cloak when they shot someone and I'll give you all my assets from all my characters in game.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9139 - 2017-04-08 22:31:27 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
...The game heavily favors goonswarm....


Only a small type. No worries, I got you covered Smile

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9140 - 2017-04-08 23:00:22 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Wonder what magic makes it so effective in Null?


The fact that there are actually threats in nullsec. Local works the same everywhere else, it just doesn't matter because you're either completely invulnerable (highsec) or doing very fast PvE where you're never staying in one place long enough for local to be more informative than d-scan (lowsec).

Quote:
Check the killboards, people die all the time.


Yes, people screw up and die. However, balance should be based on the assumption of correct play, not mistakes.



I am pretty sure a quick check of killboards will reveal that plenty of folks die in High Sec too, hardly indicative of invulnerability.

The problem you are having is that balance is based on correct play. They did the right thing, and got away. You already have almost every conceivable advantage in combat such that the most viable tactic is to simply not allow anything on grid with you. Now you find people that won't stay to test their survivability in an engagement frustrating. Go figure.