These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[News] MASSIVE DATA CORRUPTION REPORTED AT KYONOKE INQUEST

Author
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#41 - 2017-04-04 18:54:23 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:

Your posturing here is no better. Attacks against anyone do little else than stir further issues, while the events we argue about continue on under our proverbial noses.

Mr. Moromuo, it is my duty to protect Caldari State from all enemies, foreign and domestic alike. I fight them in space, and I won't stand them attacking honor of our glorious State in a way Priano just did.

I am sorry if it distracts you from the conversation, but I am just doing my duty. Please ignore what I have said not about topic, just as ignore Makoto's words.


Meanwhile, Villore Accord's citadel must be destroyed. Their presence near the infection site is an ominous sign, that can bring no good.

Be that as it may, isn't the fact the information could be corrupted so easily be more of a threat to the State than the actual group who did it? Best offense is a good defense and such? You can't prevent people from having bad intentions but you can prevent bad intentions from being put into actual practice. I would think the best course of action for the state would be to attempt to make this a one time thing as opposed to wasting resources (time specifically) swatting flies.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2017-04-05 04:33:08 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
... seriously, no off-site backups? Really?


I'm actually surprised that you're surprised by this, Miz. I mean, consider this quote from the story that came before this:

"For the first time since the initial quarantine lockdown of the RP4 facility on February 13th, the platform's owners, Astral Mining and the Federal authorities will be able to review telemetry and security logs from the installation's mainframe."

We have instantaneous communications across the cluser via liquid routers, and systems to interface with that communication system literally given away for free with every corvette. But Astral Mining hasn't been able to review telemetry? Was the entire staff killed in the first hours? Is everyone who can push a button and transmit the system logs to say, the ginormous fecking Keepstar that's been put up right there dead? Does Astral Mining have absolutely no ability to remotely access their facility's systems in the event of a catastrophic event?

Does the FIO have literally no ability to hack the facility's systems and recover this data? The SoCT doesn't have this ability, even with eggers in their ranks who can literally be one with the machines?

And now this...

There is no way this is legitimate. If information security and retrieval across the Empires is truly this incompetent, then all five Powers need to come together, formally disband CONCORD and themselves, and hand the reins of power over to a bunch of teenagers who'll at least know how to handle information technology. Because this isn't just incompetence, this is willful idiocy—if it's true.

Because hey, the only people giving us this information are the people who're clearly incapable of being trusted to handle information.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2017-04-05 09:16:02 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
... seriously, no off-site backups? Really?


I'm actually surprised that you're surprised by this, Miz. I mean, consider this quote from the story that came before this:

"For the first time since the initial quarantine lockdown of the RP4 facility on February 13th, the platform's owners, Astral Mining and the Federal authorities will be able to review telemetry and security logs from the installation's mainframe."

We have instantaneous communications across the cluser via liquid routers, and systems to interface with that communication system literally given away for free with every corvette. But Astral Mining hasn't been able to review telemetry? Was the entire staff killed in the first hours? Is everyone who can push a button and transmit the system logs to say, the ginormous fecking Keepstar that's been put up right there dead? Does Astral Mining have absolutely no ability to remotely access their facility's systems in the event of a catastrophic event?

Does the FIO have literally no ability to hack the facility's systems and recover this data? The SoCT doesn't have this ability, even with eggers in their ranks who can literally be one with the machines?

And now this...

There is no way this is legitimate. If information security and retrieval across the Empires is truly this incompetent, then all five Powers need to come together, formally disband CONCORD and themselves, and hand the reins of power over to a bunch of teenagers who'll at least know how to handle information technology. Because this isn't just incompetence, this is willful idiocy—if it's true.

Because hey, the only people giving us this information are the people who're clearly incapable of being trusted to handle information.

I guess this is what it means to be more trusting of authority..

Ms. Arrendis, our comms don't come with our ships; they come as a privilege of our status as capsuleers, and it's apparently a kind of expensive privilege. Also kind of a necessity, given the nature of our work. Ever wonder why agents never want to discuss mission specs over ftl comms? Well, aside from it being expensive, perhaps it's not really secure enough for their purposes? Could be intercepted by bugs on the ftl comms array, maybe? Not that dangerous for us, maybe really dangerous for them and their employers?

And then there's this: what's the difference between a deadspace facility we can see, and one we can't? Maybe it's whether it's broken comms silence lately, long enough for CONCORD to flag the site as an anomaly or signature?

And when CONCORD-friendly facilities break silence, who might be listening instead? Maybe Miz's Serpentis associates? Maybe someone even scarier?

And how easy are those signals, operating way beneath capsuleer levels, to hijack?

It seems likely to me that the best method for keeping a deadspace, or similar, facility safe is to keep it hidden. Not yelling data to the stars seems like a start.

This is just me speculating, of course; really my point's just this: we don't know. There's a lot of this world and our place in it that seems strange to me, starting with the absurd degree of freedom we're allowed. Comms protocol at a conventional facility is the very least of it.

I choose to trust that there's more to it all than I'm being told, more than any of us are. If that means I'm being lied to a lot, well, that only makes sense. Among the people it's obviously undesirable to give more power, we're right up at the top of the list.

The Inquest opens tomorrow. Hopefully things will be clearer from there.

May all our gods, or God, and all our ancestors and guarding spirits walk with us.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2017-04-05 13:35:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
To be fair, Aria, the comms come with the pods—which they also give out for free. We could look at the pods as being part of the cost of the jumpcloning contracts—which still doesn't cover them behind handed out hundreds at a time for no charge on medical clones—but the stations and facilities we're talking about cost several orders of magnitude more than a jumpclone.

Nor am I saying these facilities should be, as a matter of course, spewing out all their data, all day, every day, for whoever's listening. Completely setting aside the issue of data encryption, what I was talking about was the ability to send point-to-point communications on command.

If anyone with security access survived the initial outbreak, it should have been an easy thing to contact company offices elsewhere, establish a secure data connection, and dump the information. Failing that, as soon as Astral Mining and the FIO had assets in-system, they should have been able to establish a remote connection to the station's computer systems. The very idea that such a thing is impossible is ludicrous. That's what Data Analyzers are for. And those even work on cans. Cans don't have their own communications hardware to reject your docking request, unlike stations. If anything, it should be easier to establish the link, even if the security itself is tougher.

As an absolute worst-case, these are the Gallente we're talking about. Use a purpose-built drone to attach itself like a limped to the station's exterior, splice itself into the computers, and establish communication with the ship it launched from.

This doesn't need fluid router technology. The data didn't need to go across the cluster. It only needed to go to a waiting ship a few hundred meters away. And then the ship could have gone wherever that data needed to go.

Defending this incompetence by saying 'but PIRATES!' is... I'm sorry, Aria, that's not trusting authority, that's making excuses for them, and ones that require some pretty painful contortions.
Stig Elendil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2017-04-05 13:46:39 UTC
I wish I understood correctly what the Scope is telling us.

Am I totaly misinterpreting it when I understand this :

- someone took/corrupted datas (historical data from RP4 mining platform) that were "stored" in Kyonoke Inquest Citadel.
- Data corrupted were the one recovered the day before on the first expedition there.
- they're speaking about a "targeted digital attack" that most probably be done "localy" (on SoCT Citadel) in fact to "avoid trace" (meaning to avoid any digital tracking, direct corruption of the storage/data ?).
- precedent point can be linked to the possibility of missing staff guarding the datacenter IN the Citadel (something we can link to another precedent, the fact they have been able to avoid security at Kyonoke Pit).

So, any digital tracking is useless if I understand correctly as the corruption occured directly on the storage support. Staff missing on site, new staff arriving, and manhunt in the Citadel. Hope there was some video surveillance there also...

I would only recommend to any attendees there to be careful to whom they meet and speak with there and be aware of their security as a "possible threat" is around there.

Just as a reminder, the group responsible of this has already gone through State security (something that seems to not bother the State, or just seen as second hand investigation, delayed... why ?) and this same group has been able to hit the big 4 at nearly the same time.
Could it be just a group of ultra-nationalist (there you have again to check correctly the huge suspicions that Kasaras family was in a way or another linked to former Nationalist terrorists under Tibus Heth - Jaron worked under him at R&D weapons - Ohmon found dead on site) or a coordination of multiple nationalist groups to be able to hit simultaneously 4 different states ? Or maybe is it another group trying to mislead us toward any nationalist group. We need to investigate all this, in fact states should do it and not close doors first.

I don't think that any of our state did this, striking with something that sounds like a "bioweapon", has it would be very dangerous even for the user. Concord is very silent there.

Could it be a coproration or a group ? Any pirates group ? We know that they can be very powerful and destructive at some points.

I just hope that researchers will be favored in this inquest above any militaristic views and postures and I'm confident that you will find a solution there, for the safety of us all.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2017-04-05 15:23:57 UTC
So, Ms. Arrendis? I guess maybe this wasn't clear..

I didn't mean any of what I said to be a complete answer, more a suggestion that there might be an explanation we'd accept as sensible. Only, also? I ... don't actually care all that much if we're being lied to. Because, we are definitely being lied to a little.

For now, I don't know whether it's really the empires themselves in a straightforward way, or a consortium of interests, or something else, but, really, it's a little obvious: we're tools. We're being used.

Trusting authority means that, first, I assume that to be the case: you see incompetence, maybe; I see hints of something hidden.

Second it means that doesn't scare me. This is what we're for, after all. I don't expect to be immortal; I even kind of expect to be discarded at some point. I'd kind of like to know a little better, by the end, what we're being used to do. But, it's kind of okay, also, if I never find out.

I do hope it's for something I could accept as a good reason. So many dead....
Garion Avarr
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2017-04-05 15:35:50 UTC
If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2017-04-05 16:32:30 UTC
Garion Avarr wrote:
If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction.


It definitely sometimes kind of seems like the universe has a taste for absurdity, my lord.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2017-04-05 17:44:27 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
So, Ms. Arrendis? I guess maybe this wasn't clear..

I didn't mean any of what I said to be a complete answer, more a suggestion that there might be an explanation we'd accept as sensible. Only, also? I ... don't actually care all that much if we're being lied to. Because, we are definitely being lied to a little.


I'm sorry, Aria, but this isn't a question of being lied to, or keeping secrets from us. The most important thing in dealing with a crisis is getting information in a timely manner. And they... sit around for a couple of weeks? And then when they do get the information out, and it gets over to the crisis response center they've set up... it gets lost?

And that doesn't reek of gross incompetence to you?

I'm sorry, Aria, I am. But no. Those with power, whether we're talking about you, me, corp or alliance directors and CEOs, or those in charge of government agencies and leaders of great empires, religious leaders... they have to be held accountable. And there is no excuse for sitting around for weeks as people die without even making an attempt to recover the data in those computers.

There's no excuse to wasting that time, wasting those lives, that would ever be 'acceptable'. There's no security concern that could possibly have not been addressed by moving a small task force of Navy ships into the area to oversee the operation. There's no threat of 'but the Serpentis might learn something that they'd otherwise have to wait 2 weeks to bribe someone to get' that excuses that kind of depraved indifference to suffering and needless loss of life.

Trusting authority, when you come down to it, is as much an offense to any community as sociopathic individualism. It enables the corruption already inherent in the exercise of power. It breeds arrogance and a sense of being untouchable, of being above repercussion, of not being answerable to the collective good. No-one, no matter what they have achieved or where they stand in the power structure, should ever be unaccountable. No excuses, no rationalizations, no justifications, should ever be 'acceptable'.

Demand better. Always. And if those who claim power refuse to do better... remove them. Remove them, and put them in the ground, because they are a cancer, and if left to spread their nonsense, they will only metastasize as their words seep into the background awareness, as their poison spreads.

Trusting authority, rather than demanding they prove themselves, again and again, at every turn, to be worthy of the power they hold... it should be a crime.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2017-04-05 19:04:22 UTC
Inevitably, people are accountable ... but maybe not to us. (Speaking of questionable, unaccountable powers.)

Accountability ... the CEP is accountable to the Caldari people (they'll tear it down if it doesn't serve them). The Empress is accountable to God, and the Amarr might say no one else, though I'm not sure that's quite true. Gallente hold their representatives accountable; I suppose the Matari do the same with their leaders.

Maybe, in the end, we're all just accountable to Consequence, the only "justice" this world seems to know. That's really the final, even the only, judge of such things. But for me ... compromised, rootless, with no place in this world....

The Praefecta has a side in our pact, also: to take my oath, and service, seriously, not to use it to trifle with me. Not to treat me as a toy. Less formally, to continue to be someone I'm proud to serve, since there's a clause allowing my withdrawal on one month's written notice. (Her idea.)

So, maybe I'm less wary of the greater powers because in the end I recognize only one authority.

It's not like I'm unaware or free of them, though, so, maybe not.

Really, I guess it's a cultural thing, Ms. Arrendis. Caldari, and Achura, trust leaders to lead, and attend to our lives while leaving power to the powerful. That doesn't normally change a lot unless we notice those daily lives getting especially hard to lead. Otherwise, we assume that elites are exactly that, and let them get on with it without all the time demanding explanations for things.

It can be abused, and sometimes has been, but it's in arrogance's nature to overplay its hand.

Perhaps that has happened here somehow. Perhaps not. Either way, the Inquest begins tomorrow.

Wish us luck.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2017-04-05 19:45:30 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Otherwise, we assume that elites are exactly that, and let them get on with it without all the time demanding explanations for things.


Because that's worked so well, right?

As you say, the Inquest starts tomorrow... and is already rife with incompetence.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#52 - 2017-04-05 20:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Arrendis wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Otherwise, we assume that elites are exactly that, and let them get on with it without all the time demanding explanations for things.


Because that's worked so well, right?

As you say, the Inquest starts tomorrow... and is already rife with incompetence.


It got us through an eight-decade war. It's also how our ancestors survived on a couple really harsh worlds. The problem, to ask most Caldari, is interference from outsiders, especially when it corrupts the elites with individualistic ideas, so they start to treat their power as a way to serve themselves instead of the Caldari.

So ... actually, yeah, it's worked okay. Even Tibus Heth wasn't that much of an exception, as he brought some reforms the State needed a little badly. My own problems with the State don't have much to do with that, either.

The Federal way might work fine for the Federation-- checks, balances, accountability everywhere! ... maybe. The Caldari as a people chose another path, and have held on pretty well through the last couple hundred years that way.

I'm still interested to see what your Imperium can do, if you ever get the chance.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#53 - 2017-04-05 22:01:50 UTC
Kind of wish I had Serpentis associates. It'd make the process of getting their bio-engineering data so much easier than it is. The ridiculous amount of roadblocks to navigate in order to get full access is incredible. It's like getting access to RSS datastores as an independent capsuleer.

The booster research? Easiest thing in the world, standardized capsuleer industry tech for the most part. The actual bio-engineering research their baseliner organization has, owing to their admittedly impressive drug research, development and sales? More jealously guarded than the Kyonoke data, it would seem given recent events.

They're a pain in the arse more than associates.

Either way, you're being far too naive here, Aria. So blindly accepting of malicious acts simply because it happens further up the ladder of authority. If they're not held accountable for both their screw ups and their crimes, they will screw you over. This has been the case in every society mankind has ever devised, and you know it.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2017-04-05 22:31:51 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Otherwise, we assume that elites are exactly that, and let them get on with it without all the time demanding explanations for things.


Because that's worked so well, right?

As you say, the Inquest starts tomorrow... and is already rife with incompetence.


Incompetence is a constant, Arrendis - and not just in the State.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2017-04-05 22:33:15 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:


I'm still interested to see what your Imperium can do, if you ever get the chance.


You and I both know that Capsuleer organisations have, at best, five years before they get ripped down by competitors.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2017-04-05 22:53:46 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
It got us through an eight-decade war. It's also how our ancestors survived on a couple really harsh worlds. The problem, to ask most Caldari, is interference from outsiders, especially when it corrupts the elites with individualistic ideas, so they start to treat their power as a way to serve themselves instead of the Caldari.


It got you into that war, too. And as long as your leaders remain human beings, they won't need any 'interference from outsiders' to decide to feather the nest and look after their own desires, instead of the interests of the whole. Some few may resist, but for the most part... power, not 'Bob from next door', corrupts.

Quote:

The Federal way might work fine for the Federation-- checks, balances, accountability everywhere! ... maybe. The Caldari as a people chose another path, and have held on pretty well through the last couple hundred years that way.


The Federal way is a joke. The Senate is no more accountable than the CEP, they just mouth the party line and tell their constituents what they want to hear: that they're working hard, and things would be getting so much better if only the other factions in the Senate/Caldari/Flavor-of-the-week-bad-guys weren't fouling things up and keeping them from making real change.

Lies, all of it. Lies and deflections to cling to power and privilege, while laughing at the people they con into handing them control. Just look at what prompted ths discussion in this thread for evidence of that. Rank incompetence and inept sloth in the face of a crisis.

And every last person who puts their faith in authority without demanding that proof of worthiness is complicit.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#57 - 2017-04-06 00:05:59 UTC
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:
God Almighty, we are in the hands of computer scientists.

Haven't we been since the beginning? I mean, sombody programmed the neutral scanners that bring us back....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2017-04-06 00:25:50 UTC
It looks like at this point we're down to declarations of faith, or, well, the lack of it, Ms. Arrendis.

Miz, you're really going to ask an even just kind-of loyal Caldari to demand more accountability for the Caldari people than they demand for themselves? Ms. Arrendis, you actually seem to want me to be convinced that even the Federation's people are criminally complicit because they don't demand enough of their government?

I think I'll just leave you to your righteous declarations and go commiserate with Pieter about how outsiders just don't get it or something.

'Cause if you're talking about a system more "accountable" than the Federation, it seems to me I'm arguing against a shining fantasy-- and I'm definitely not the one who's naive.

Over the vast majority of its history, humanity's been ruled by one sort or another of autocrat and oligarch. That's not trust; it's just history, and it's gotten us this far. The big question facing something like the Federation is, and long has been, "but is it stable?"

You want to try something even more responsive, and call me names for being comfortable with the established order?

Tell you what: build it. Make it something real, and not just something your ideology demands you believe in. Keep it stable for a century. Then we can maybe talk.

Until then please count me a naive criminal, along with most of the other tool-using apes of New Eden.
Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2017-04-06 00:53:07 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:


I'm still interested to see what your Imperium can do, if you ever get the chance.


You and I both know that Capsuleer organisations have, at best, five years before they get ripped down by competitors.


PIE endures!
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2017-04-06 01:56:19 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:


I'm still interested to see what your Imperium can do, if you ever get the chance.


You and I both know that Capsuleer organisations have, at best, five years before they get ripped down by competitors.

Pandemic Legion is twice that old and Goons in one form or another I think are seven years old.

Failing is not what determines your strength but the endurance to rise above failures and setbacks and be greater than you were before. You are beginning to sound like an old man who does not think that the warp drive will catch on Pieter.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.