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"Alpha Clone" is not "Budget Player"
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#21 - 2017-04-02 16:47:36 UTC
For the low price of $10.95/mo you can have anything in the game. That's the cost of a single lunch, if that.
Girka Kring
Doomheim
#22 - 2017-04-02 18:36:32 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
If we are talking content packs, these would be the kind that would make sense. Not the T1 explorer bullshit.

How do you neutralize their economic effects? Well, maybe for each content pack that is sold CCP bots sell PLEX to Jita market and buy the materials/SP books/apparel from the Jita market. It is almost as if the player bought the plex for USD, then sold it to the market, then bought the ships and the SP, minus the middle steps. Pricing could be dinamic with respect to PLEX/material values. Maybe CCP bots buying and selling stuff or doing it at favored stations is problematic, but I don't think these packs will be sold to have a huge impact on the market anyway. It is not as if you have a reason to buy them again and again. Buying content packs to sell the rewards on market won't make financial sense either, thus it won't lead to a market crash, because you get direct skill upgrades and you will need extractors to extract them, costing money in-between. And the SP will probably be the most expensive item within these packs.

I think most of the resistance to this idea can be reduced to status quo bias. If you want Eve to have content packs, this is the best way to go, and economics of it can be solved with half of the energy people will spend to resist and **** on the idea.

Also yeah, from my own experience, I was ready to attempt solo Sin way before I can actually fly a Sin. The pack just bridges that gap. Then again the Sin might be problematic as it requires multiboxing. But everything else is not.


Yeah, great idea.

Option 1. Ppl sell PLEX and buy stuff.
Option 2. CCP bot sells PLEX, buy stuff from market and use that stuff to create expensive packs, from items worth probably hundreds of $$$ that newbs will lose faster than NC. runs from an even fight.

Most resistance to this idea can be reduced to the fact that your idea is dumb.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2017-04-02 18:49:20 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Il'Rik Rik'Kha wrote:
Quote:
Ships for cash is cool. Content packs are bad with respect to the ISK you could have by buying PLEX instead.

A proper way of doing this could have been isolating niche fun ways of playing and selling packs like that, giving newbros incentive to go do some research. A newbro doesn't know that he doesn't know Stratios wh diving is a fun way to play Eve. Offer him a "Stratios WH Diver" content pack and now he knows what he didn't know, does some further research on youtube and he is good to go. What does the pack include? A properly fit Stratios for the exact purpose, all the skills (books and SP) automatically leveled for a core Stratios WH Diver (drones 5, amarr gallente cruiser 4 or 5 etc) and a few skins to have fun with. Have the price meaningfully lower than the total ISK value of the items, and you're good to go.

" Fleet Stealth Bomber "
" Solo Sin Hotdropper "
" Tornado Gatecamper "
" Sabre Nullsec Fleet "
" Crow Small Fleet Tackler "
" Navy Slicer FW Fighter "
" VNI Nullsec Ratter "
" Rattlesnake C3 Completer "

Not only you have meaningful content packs that are financially making sense to purchase, but also you make newbros aware of what they don't know and push them to research more.


This!

You already have that.

Its called buy PLEX from CCP and sell it to other players for isk. Then you buy all the stuff from the market. If you don't know what to buy, there are lots of information sources out there.

If you want to bypass the market and buy ships directly from CCP you break the game. Mining, Industry would become worthless. Missioning and exploration also if you can buy a Rattlesnake (or other Faction items) direct from CCP.


Not empty quoting. With this approach you can do anything you want. That is you are not constrained by some package you bought from CCP. Further, it also works with the in-game economy not against it. By selling PLEX you give some player(s) what he (they) want. You get what you want. Further, you do not disrupt the markets by creating stuff out of thin air. This allows for more people in the game than there otherwise would be and all are better off.

Seriously, CCP gives you the "ultimate content pack" and you can't even see it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#24 - 2017-04-02 19:42:24 UTC
You got a plus one for the ideas listed as content packs solely because I believe that giving people a further view into Eve is a good thing rather than relying purely on them hit or missing with making friends in a corp or alliance to help them and therefore player retention in the long run. If the time of you have to figure everything out yourself is truly over in Eve then this ideation is a good way to go yet must be done without straight injections of isk, ships or modules into the game but a significant understanding of the pathway. Yes Plex and other things should be the method used yet it is the steps that need to be fleshed out and plex/injector style packages fleshed out and updated periodically. Aka this many plex, these steps, will put you into X ship and role at current levels/prices. Then only the lower tiers need to be introduced for purchase in any way but with full market and economic usage and facilitation occurring.

Content packs seem to be far to weak since Ascension as part of the HUGE draw of them was the extra 20 days of trial time for me. For a pure noob who knows nothing about Eve or hasnt done any homework on the game it was fine toss in the minnow to the shark pool action. Yet these days not watching Eve Youtube or other videos and then trying Eve and sticking around is highly unlikely and one of the big issues contending it is finding people who will find corps/alliances/friends and stick around and then applying a good way to get there if you so wish financially. Making this easier and more granular would facilitate this.

Yet people will complain either way. And I shall laugh either way.Twisted

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2017-04-02 19:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjorn Tyrson
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:
If we are talking content packs, these would be the kind that would make sense. Not the T1 explorer bullshit.

How do you neutralize their economic effects? Well, maybe for each content pack that is sold CCP bots sell PLEX to Jita market and buy the materials/SP books/apparel from the Jita market. It is almost as if the player bought the plex for USD, then sold it to the market, then bought the ships and the SP, minus the middle steps. Pricing could be dinamic with respect to PLEX/material values. Maybe CCP bots buying and selling stuff or doing it at favored stations is problematic, but I don't think these packs will be sold to have a huge impact on the market anyway. It is not as if you have a reason to buy them again and again. Buying content packs to sell the rewards on market won't make financial sense either, thus it won't lead to a market crash, because you get direct skill upgrades and you will need extractors to extract them, costing money in-between. And the SP will probably be the most expensive item within these packs.

I think most of the resistance to this idea can be reduced to status quo bias. If you want Eve to have content packs, this is the best way to go, and economics of it can be solved with half of the energy people will spend to resist and **** on the idea.

Also yeah, from my own experience, I was ready to attempt solo Sin way before I can actually fly a Sin. The pack just bridges that gap. Then again the Sin might be problematic as it requires multiboxing. But everything else is not.


so on top of ccp magicking a ship from thin air, you also want them to magic isk from thin air as well? at that point why even bother having a player economy? lets just have all ships and modules be seeded on the market, and the only way to get t2 or faction ships is to buy them from the cash store. because that would actually be a more sustainable model than what you are suggesting.


I don't see how you think my suggestions lead to ISK injection while quoting my post. Are you sure you have read it? The process I described is an exact replica of the player driven process (new player buys PLEX for dollar, sells PLEX for ISK, buys SP/Ship/Skin), except cutting new player's time in figuring out what is a good ship and what he can do with it. Instead of player doing all the buy/sell beginning from PLEX, CCP does it for him until he gets the particular ship/SP via market bots.

It doesn't even have to be a 'market bot'. It can be a "buy all" button plus some automation in applying skills and fitting ships really. With one button you instantly buy a calculated amount of PLEX from CCP, sell it to Jita buy orders, buy ship/SP from Jita sell orders, fit/apply the skills/ship and you are good to go. The USD price can vary system by system, and it's OK if it is unavailable when the stuff is unavailable on the market as well.

I don't necessarily say content packs are good for Eve, but I say this is how you can do it without half assing it.


And how much are you willing to pay extra for that convenience of having everything done for you? 10% 20% and how are you going yo account for different people having different skills already trained? Will it have to do a custom pull for every single person who buys the pack in order to buy them the right number of injectors? Will the prices change based on the current cost of those injectors? Or are they just going to magic the skill points onto your character sheet?

And how much would you be willing to pay for said pack? 20 dollars only gets you 1 plex, that's 2 injectors which is barely even enough for for the light drone skills. Let alone all the other skills you would need to fly the ship even half competently.

And that's not even getting into fittings.

Even better, why don't you just put together a newbie package. Include the ship, all relevant skill books. And enough injectors to get a brand new player to the relevant lvls for that ship. Include a skill distribution chart and put it on the market as an item exchange for the amount of plex it is worth. See how well it sells. If there is a demand and a need for it then people will buy it.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#26 - 2017-04-02 21:46:20 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Ships for cash?

Biomass and take yourself back to whatever crap game you came from.


he is from bombers bar Lol
he made drama etcLol


what did you expect? Lol
stupid people have always stupid ideas Lol


No, stupid people rely on ad hominem instead of providing arguments to object ideas that they don't like.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#27 - 2017-04-02 21:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Teckos Pech wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Il'Rik Rik'Kha wrote:
Quote:
Ships for cash is cool. Content packs are bad with respect to the ISK you could have by buying PLEX instead.

A proper way of doing this could have been isolating niche fun ways of playing and selling packs like that, giving newbros incentive to go do some research. A newbro doesn't know that he doesn't know Stratios wh diving is a fun way to play Eve. Offer him a "Stratios WH Diver" content pack and now he knows what he didn't know, does some further research on youtube and he is good to go. What does the pack include? A properly fit Stratios for the exact purpose, all the skills (books and SP) automatically leveled for a core Stratios WH Diver (drones 5, amarr gallente cruiser 4 or 5 etc) and a few skins to have fun with. Have the price meaningfully lower than the total ISK value of the items, and you're good to go.

" Fleet Stealth Bomber "
" Solo Sin Hotdropper "
" Tornado Gatecamper "
" Sabre Nullsec Fleet "
" Crow Small Fleet Tackler "
" Navy Slicer FW Fighter "
" VNI Nullsec Ratter "
" Rattlesnake C3 Completer "

Not only you have meaningful content packs that are financially making sense to purchase, but also you make newbros aware of what they don't know and push them to research more.


This!

You already have that.

Its called buy PLEX from CCP and sell it to other players for isk. Then you buy all the stuff from the market. If you don't know what to buy, there are lots of information sources out there.

If you want to bypass the market and buy ships directly from CCP you break the game. Mining, Industry would become worthless. Missioning and exploration also if you can buy a Rattlesnake (or other Faction items) direct from CCP.


Not empty quoting. With this approach you can do anything you want. That is you are not constrained by some package you bought from CCP. Further, it also works with the in-game economy not against it. By selling PLEX you give some player(s) what he (they) want. You get what you want. Further, you do not disrupt the markets by creating stuff out of thin air. This allows for more people in the game than there otherwise would be and all are better off.

Seriously, CCP gives you the "ultimate content pack" and you can't even see it.


I can see it. The question is whether newbros can see it. Be all the pretentious elitist you wanna be. People like content packs in other games. They are often premade ways of playing the game. If you take this idea and implement to Eve this is what you are supposed to get.

In my last post I offered for it to function as a "buy all" button. Can we ******* stop about influencing market or injecting ISK?

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2017-04-02 21:52:07 UTC
So CCP

We are eager to P2W.

Just throw on some awesome stuff for us.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#29 - 2017-04-02 22:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:


And how much are you willing to pay extra for that convenience of having everything done for you? 10% 20% and how are you going yo account for different people having different skills already trained? Will it have to do a custom pull for every single person who buys the pack in order to buy them the right number of injectors? Will the prices change based on the current cost of those injectors? Or are they just going to magic the skill points onto your character sheet?

And how much would you be willing to pay for said pack? 20 dollars only gets you 1 plex, that's 2 injectors which is barely even enough for for the light drone skills. Let alone all the other skills you would need to fly the ship even half competently.

And that's not even getting into fittings.

Even better, why don't you just put together a newbie package. Include the ship, all relevant skill books. And enough injectors to get a brand new player to the relevant lvls for that ship. Include a skill distribution chart and put it on the market as an item exchange for the amount of plex it is worth. See how well it sells. If there is a demand and a need for it then people will buy it.


That is the very idea. Convenience is what makes it an attractive package. I don't mind CCP leveraging convenience to sell stuff to newbros. That is one thing that will not affect the game economy.

I don't imagine a Blops package being anywhere below 100 dollars. Other games have expensive packages. But not a fixed rate. Maybe some solid %25 off the PLEX/USD conversion. Think of them as wholesales of packages ships, skins and SP.

I imagine skills that are gonna level up are pre-fixed and you don't get leftover SP if you have already some SP toward those skills. Else it would be the cheapest way to get some general SP. If you are halfway toward a solo Sin you probably know what solo Sin is and are not a newbro that CCP needs to show some direction.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Il'Rik Rik'Kha
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2017-04-03 07:32:25 UTC
Quote:
People like content packs in other games. They are often premade ways of playing the game.


This...

Quote:
You got a plus one for the ideas listed as content packs solely because I believe that giving people a further view into Eve is a good thing rather than relying purely on them hit or missing with making friends in a corp or alliance to help them and therefore player retention in the long run.


... And this
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-04-03 08:36:22 UTC
You do realise you can already do something like that in the contracts page right? Of course, you have to pay with ISK, but get this, ISK can be made by selling PLEX, which you can buy with real money!

Perhaps the better idea is to give the industrialists the ability to produce packs by tweaking the industry window to allow for the manufacturing of premade packs, and the traders the ability to package specific ships and modules into packs.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#32 - 2017-04-03 12:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregorius Goldstein
This was the death of more than one MMO already. Sales skyrocket until everyone has the packs that fit the personal playstyle. But that is a onetime effect because you sold what you developed so far. But it is very tricky to develop new content because you need the cash back up front and if one, ONLY ONE, extension fails for whatever reason things get nasty funding wise.

When the players tell you: “Nah, that new thing is not for me, I will stay with what I already bought, perhaps next time?” you’ll run out of options for a "next time" pretty soon. And players always find a reason to not buy an extension, it’s the internet and no matter what you do, 50% won’t like it just because.

whine, whine.. don't want to PVP.. whine
Why don't you just buy some PVP ships and shot back?
whine.. now they want me make to spend real money too.. whine..

And don't tell me exactly that wouln'd happen.

Olmeca Gold wrote:
Zirashi wrote:

Yeah, shame on CCP for choosing to include all of the game's expansions free with subscription.

And how dare they refuse to allow direct cash ship purchases that would destroy their lauded ingame economy in the process.

Lastly, SKINs are exactly the same as the cosmetic DLC found in other games, except here you can also buy it with ingame money made from playing.

"Two steps back," he says. LOL.


Ships for cash is cool. Content packs are bad with respect to the ISK you could have by buying PLEX instead.

A proper way of doing this could have been isolating niche fun ways of playing and selling packs like that, giving newbros incentive to go do some research. A newbro doesn't know that he doesn't know Stratios wh diving is a fun way to play Eve. Offer him a "Stratios WH Diver" content pack and now he knows what he didn't know, does some further research on youtube and he is good to go. What does the pack include? A properly fit Stratios for the exact purpose, all the skills (books and SP) automatically leveled for a core Stratios WH Diver (drones 5, amarr gallente cruiser 4 or 5 etc) and a few skins to have fun with. Have the price meaningfully lower than the total ISK value of the items, and you're good to go.

" Fleet Stealth Bomber "
" Solo Sin Hotdropper "
" Tornado Gatecamper "
" Sabre Nullsec Fleet "
" Crow Small Fleet Tackler "
" Navy Slicer FW Fighter "
" VNI Nullsec Ratter "
" Rattlesnake C3 Completer "

Not only you have meaningful content packs that are financially making sense to purchase, but also you make newbros aware of what they don't know and push them to research more.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#33 - 2017-04-03 12:32:32 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
You do realise you can already do something like that in the contracts page right? Of course, you have to pay with ISK, but get this, ISK can be made by selling PLEX, which you can buy with real money!

Perhaps the better idea is to give the industrialists the ability to produce packs by tweaking the industry window to allow for the manufacturing of premade packs, and the traders the ability to package specific ships and modules into packs.


Can you stop with "you can do that with ISK" crap? YOU know what to get for your ISK. New people are often completely lost. We are talking about how to guide newbros by giving them meaningful places to spend dollars. This game relies too much on community teaching people how to play it already. This was an idea on how CCP can pitch in a little bit, with shiny content packs to aspire to. Ofc its an illusion. But it could tip them the right way. Because most playstyle come with access to new ships first.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2017-04-03 13:08:11 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:


And how much are you willing to pay extra for that convenience of having everything done for you? 10% 20% and how are you going yo account for different people having different skills already trained? Will it have to do a custom pull for every single person who buys the pack in order to buy them the right number of injectors? Will the prices change based on the current cost of those injectors? Or are they just going to magic the skill points onto your character sheet?

And how much would you be willing to pay for said pack? 20 dollars only gets you 1 plex, that's 2 injectors which is barely even enough for for the light drone skills. Let alone all the other skills you would need to fly the ship even half competently.

And that's not even getting into fittings.

Even better, why don't you just put together a newbie package. Include the ship, all relevant skill books. And enough injectors to get a brand new player to the relevant lvls for that ship. Include a skill distribution chart and put it on the market as an item exchange for the amount of plex it is worth. See how well it sells. If there is a demand and a need for it then people will buy it.


That is the very idea. Convenience is what makes it an attractive package. I don't mind CCP leveraging convenience to sell stuff to newbros. That is one thing that will not affect the game economy.

I don't imagine a Blops package being anywhere below 100 dollars. Other games have expensive packages. But not a fixed rate. Maybe some solid %25 off the PLEX/USD conversion. Think of them as wholesales of packages ships, skins and SP.

I imagine skills that are gonna level up are pre-fixed and you don't get leftover SP if you have already some SP toward those skills. Else it would be the cheapest way to get some general SP. If you are halfway toward a solo Sin you probably know what solo Sin is and are not a newbro that CCP needs to show some direction.


So then what is stopping me from extracting all those SP. Buying the package and getting the max amount out of it. Then selling the ship and the SP for more than the package would be worth in plex? (Since it's 25% off)
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#35 - 2017-04-03 13:10:25 UTC
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:
This was the death of more than one MMO already. Sales skyrocket until everyone has the packs that fit the personal playstyle. But that is a onetime effect because you sold what you developed so far. But it is very tricky to develop new content because you need the cash back up front and if one, ONLY ONE, extension fails for whatever reason things get nasty funding wise.

When the players tell you: “Nah, that new thing is not for me, I will stay with what I already bought, perhaps next time?” you’ll run out of options for a "next time" pretty soon. And players always find a reason to not buy an extension, it’s the internet and no matter what you do, 50% won’t like it just because.

whine, whine.. don't want to PVP.. whine
Why don't you just buy some PVP ships and shot back?
whine.. now they want me make to spend real money too.. whine..

And don't tell me exactly that wouln'd happen.


Here is how you access to a new playstyle in Eve: You grow your SP, get into a ship, start playing in a particular way that the ship enabled you. A lot of ships have different roles and open up playstyles. My proposal would just provide a shortcut to this, also giving people things to aspire to. I dont think it would crash Eve. But sure whatevs. Its not like it will get implemented from this thread.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
knowsitall
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2017-04-03 15:00:18 UTC
[quote=Perhaps the better idea is to give the industrialists the ability to produce packs by tweaking the industry window to allow for the manufacturing of premade packs, and the traders the ability to package specific ships and modules into packs. [/quote]

^^ This.

In a PLAYER driven (not CCP driven) economy give PLAYERS the tools for meeting a demand. Now this can be done with contracts now, but contracts are not as accessible as the market.

It would however make direct comparisons very hard on the market.

Maybe an extension to contracts called "bundles" where you can link a bundle to ship. Sell an entire ship and fit etc. Then put link on the ship explorer window that opens the contracts filtered to all the "bundles" linked to that ship.

I have often said more options in the contract system are always good. The contract system allow players to create content for other players, always a good thing in a sandbox.

Look at how proper courier contracts opened up the logistics market.

I actually wrote a post long ago asking for more contract options

Extending Player driven economy with contracts

KIA
Tanuki Kittybeta
Ripperoni in Pepperoni
#37 - 2017-04-03 15:36:57 UTC
buy more plex
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#38 - 2017-04-03 16:19:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Zirashi wrote:
Marcus Heth wrote:
The content packs were introduced because Steam likes to sell "DLC", and in the usual half arsed CCP way it never really got fleshed out or thought about properly.

One step forward, two steps back.

Yeah, shame on CCP for choosing to include all of the game's expansions free with subscription.

And how dare they refuse to allow direct cash ship purchases that would destroy their lauded ingame economy in the process.

Lastly, SKINs are exactly the same as the cosmetic DLC found in other games, except here you can also buy it with ingame money made from playing.

"Two steps back," he says. LOL.


Ships for cash is cool. Content packs are bad with respect to the ISK you could have by buying PLEX instead.

A proper way of doing this could have been isolating niche fun ways of playing and selling packs like that, giving newbros incentive to go do some research. A newbro doesn't know that he doesn't know Stratios wh diving is a fun way to play Eve. Offer him a "Stratios WH Diver" content pack and now he knows what he didn't know, does some further research on youtube and he is good to go. What does the pack include? A properly fit Stratios for the exact purpose, all the skills (books and SP) automatically leveled for a core Stratios WH Diver (drones 5, amarr gallente cruiser 4 or 5 etc) and a few skins to have fun with. Have the price meaningfully lower than the total ISK value of the items, and you're good to go.

" Fleet Stealth Bomber "
" Solo Sin Hotdropper "
" Tornado Gatecamper "
" Sabre Nullsec Fleet "
" Crow Small Fleet Tackler "
" Navy Slicer FW Fighter "
" VNI Nullsec Ratter "
" Rattlesnake C3 Completer "

Not only you have meaningful content packs that are financially making sense to purchase, but also you make newbros aware of what they don't know and push them to research more.

This is a nice idea, BUT the average customer wants to use the stuff he buys immediately, not in 3 months when he has finished training the requiered skills. Customer support would get thousands of tickets from pissed off customers if CCP were selling content packs like "Solo Sin Hotdropper".
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#39 - 2017-04-03 17:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Ships for cash?

Biomass and take yourself back to whatever crap game you came from.


he is from bombers bar Lol
he made drama etcLol


what did you expect? Lol
stupid people have always stupid ideas Lol


No, stupid people rely on ad hominem instead of providing arguments to object ideas that they don't like.
Ingame objects purchased for cash have their place in Eve, PLEX is a hugely popular method of converting $$ into isk or services for example, cosmetic items are another example. What is being suggested, on the other hand, does not.

The market is player driven, the logistics chain for 99%+ of the goods traded is made up of players; CCP magically producing ships and modules from nowhere air for cash is detrimental to the player driven market, demeans the efforts of miners, industrialists and traders, and above all goes against one of the main selling points of the game.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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