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Clearly War Decs are TOO cheap.
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Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2017-04-02 13:15:55 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground".




This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card.




Funny because That was literally the only change to the relevant mechanics in the last couple of years and it saw an immediate, dramatic and sustained increase in the amount of wars declared by the larger Mercs, the smaller ones either folding or being absorbed almost across the board.

War spamming hub humping degenerative fecking messers became the modus operandi,
rather than something the rest of us would point and laugh at.

it doesn't necessarily have to be an online/offline thing,
Filterable map stats on a per alliance/corp level, delayed heat maps ,or some way of cutting out the noise of empire is necessary.



Lol. Keep re-writing that history however you see fit. War decs were already screwed WELL before the watch list got changed. The blanket war deccing in hubs had been around for far longer than your watchlist being changed to a mutual friends list. We all know you're one of those 'give me an easy way to generate dank killmails' lot :)

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2017-04-02 13:26:02 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
If you want to fix blanket wardecs then you have to give back the ability to make targeted wars. The fix is simple, when you run a locator agent if the target is offline it simply says "the target has gone to ground".




This has literally 0 effect on the act of war deccing someone. It's just a 'make it easier for me leet PVP in high sec' card.




Funny because That was literally the only change to the relevant mechanics in the last couple of years and it saw an immediate, dramatic and sustained increase in the amount of wars declared by the larger Mercs, the smaller ones either folding or being absorbed almost across the board.

War spamming hub humping degenerative fecking messers became the modus operandi,
rather than something the rest of us would point and laugh at.

it doesn't necessarily have to be an online/offline thing,
Filterable map stats on a per alliance/corp level, delayed heat maps ,or some way of cutting out the noise of empire is necessary.



Lol. Keep re-writing that history however you see fit. War decs were already screwed WELL before the watch list got changed. The blanket war deccing in hubs had been around for far longer than your watchlist being changed to a mutual friends list. We all know you're one of those 'give me an easy way to generate dank killmails' lot :)


The watch list changes forced everyone to mass wardec, it made what you hate worse.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2017-04-02 13:28:06 UTC
so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem???? Shocked



-.-

Ty for finally admitting it.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#24 - 2017-04-02 15:09:36 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
We could always go back to the old wardec prices @2M a pop. That may encourage smaller entities to start individual and meaningful wars again, rather than banding together in a few corps and wardeccing every thing in sight in the hope of getting something to shoot at.

Still have the Intell issue, without sorting that you just make hub humping cheeper.
True enough, mass wardeccing is a symptom, it's not the disease.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#25 - 2017-04-02 15:19:08 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem???? Shocked



-.-

Ty for finally admitting it.

It's only been a problem since the alternative was gutted.
We've seen more bemoaning in the last year than the previous 3 on this topic.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2017-04-02 15:38:55 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
so you're saying it just exaggerated a pre-existing problem, that it's not the ACTUAL problem???? Shocked



-.-

Ty for finally admitting it.

It's only been a problem since the alternative was gutted.
We've seen more bemoaning in the last year than the previous 3 on this topic.




Lemme get out my tiny violin for ya. Watch lists were removed for good reasons. They're not coming back, nor are they going to be worked around by having locators tell you exactly what a watch list told you before, when it was decided they gave too much information and needed to be removed. So rather than keep complaining about an exaggeration... why don't you put your effort into addressing the problem.... which is again that war decs now serve little to no measurable purpose in the game other than structure bashing, because everything they set out to do can be done with a few catalysts or talos.

Even IF locators did, that still would not solve the core problem, would just mean you knew which of your blanket war dec targets was online when you ran the locator.


Don't misunderstand, I will be one of the loudest voices telling CCP where exactly to shove their idea should ANYONE at CCP ever get the opinion that ganking should be removed. But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment. You may as well just remove war decs.


Also PS... Just because your game play got stepped on doesn't mean it was a bad change for the game. Reference Jump fatigue/reduced jump ranges.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#27 - 2017-04-02 16:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Op is moaning about war spamming, which has become problematic in the last year.
Yes it was around beforehand but it's only been problematic since some clever clogs forced an issue.

Without an alternative we're only going to compound the issue.

Quote:
But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment

So don't, I didn't.

Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Atomeon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2017-04-02 20:46:44 UTC
Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one.
When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted.
As for the cost to bribe should be same as the wardec itself, since if you want to expanded to whole Highsec you need to bride the 4 faction police.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#29 - 2017-04-02 20:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Atomeon wrote:
Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one.
When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted.
As for the cost to bribe should be same as the wardec itself, since if you want to expanded to whole Highsec you need to bride the 4 faction police.


Pay another player corp to attack the guys who are attacking you?

The drawback is they can be attacked risk free at any time. I'm wondering why you care about wardecs though, given you've been in an NPC corp for years.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#30 - 2017-04-02 21:04:16 UTC
Atomeon wrote:
Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one.
.


That's your job.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#31 - 2017-04-02 23:28:00 UTC
Atomeon wrote:
When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted.


Everyone is already hunting and being hunted. It's not a problem with the game mechanics when incompetent players decide to hide in station at all times instead of saying "ooh, free war dec, let's go gank these guys", and we do not need a solution where these players are coddled by having NPC bodyguards.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#32 - 2017-04-03 07:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Atomeon wrote:
Since the wardeccing has no draw back for the Wardeccing Corp lets add one.
When wardeccing a corp, the corp has the ability to bribe the faction police to hunt down the wardecers, so everyone is be hunting and be hunted.
As for the cost to bribe should be same as the wardec itself, since if you want to expanded to whole Highsec you need to bride the 4 faction police.

The cost is already a drawback, given how easy it is to dodge a war all together, but if you want them to be hunted, go hunt them yourself, or pay another player group to go do it.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2017-04-03 14:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Ageanal Olerie wrote:

When you see a corp or alliance regularly has many dozens of active war decs, including against alliances, then clearly these things are far too inexpensive.



That is just a symptom of previous changes to war decs and the base design.

War decs an open ended feature and both side hate the other one for using the open ended part of it.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2017-04-03 15:09:45 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Op is moaning about war spamming, which has become problematic in the last year.
Yes it was around beforehand but it's only been problematic since some clever clogs forced an issue.

Without an alternative we're only going to compound the issue.

Quote:
But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment

So don't, I didn't.

Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.




And yet you just did. Huh. Guess that speaks volumes to your credibility then.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Roamer Jakuard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2017-04-03 16:25:33 UTC
Personally, I don't care about Wardecs since I only belong to an NPC corp.

But I will say this. When I was totally new, I briefly joined a corp. But the same day I joined, the corp was wardeced, and I was advised to leave to save from being needlessly attacted. All I was taught was that in hisec, 'joining a player corp'='bad'. This is largely why I have never joined a corp since. I fully approve of ganking in hisec (risk is good, it's had the pulse racing at times as a potential and justifiable target). But wardecs, all they do is stop me from participating more with others. Even if I move my home base out of hisec, I would still be reluctant to join any player corp (officially), since I wouldn't want to drop corp every time I go to hisec for any length of time.

Wardecs don't affect me, but other than for POS bashing, I personally don't consider them of value to helping participation in the game.

I would like to see a system for mercs, where the validity of information (rumours) for tracking is proportional to the notoriety of the target (a watch list was too good from my understanding). But that belongs in its own topic.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#36 - 2017-04-03 16:30:15 UTC
Maybe the cost of wardeccs should be a plex, this way the cost of war deccing is the cost of a plex what ever the price may be, burn up some of the plex out there.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#37 - 2017-04-03 16:35:06 UTC
Roamer Jakuard wrote:
When I was totally new, I briefly joined a corp. But the same day I joined, the corp was wardeced, and I was advised to leave to save from being needlessly attacted. All I was taught was that in hisec, 'joining a player corp'='bad'.


This is not a problem with the mechanics. It's a problem with the corp you joined being incompetent morons who would rather give up at the first sign of adversity than fight back and win. It's bad that new players are taught "adversity = scary = quit", but there isn't anything CCP can do about this when it's their fellow players doing the teaching.

Quote:
I would still be reluctant to join any player corp (officially), since I wouldn't want to drop corp every time I go to hisec for any length of time.


Why would you have to drop corp every time you go to highsec? Are you that bad at the game?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#38 - 2017-04-03 17:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kisaria wrote:
I agree with the OP that there is a problem...
Indeed there is, but it's not what you think. The problem is people that won't or don't use the existing mechanics to mitigate the perceived damage a wardec can do.

The fact that merc corps have to run multiple wardecs in order to get more chance of something to shoot at can be used to tilt the odds in a targets favour if only they thought a little instead of sitting in station wailing about how unfair it all is.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#39 - 2017-04-03 19:40:03 UTC
Roamer Jakuard wrote:


Wardecs don't affect me, but other than for POS bashing, I personally don't consider them of value to helping participation in the game..



Players getting into pvp is what keeps people playing. Noobs used wardecs to first try out pvp in a relatively small and familiar environment. They cut their teeth in hunting and pvp skills against other high sec corps.

Wardecs were nerfed in 2012 to be more costly and overly biased to the defender (no more small scale-noob wardecs), the game started tanking barely a year after. Go figure.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#40 - 2017-04-03 21:57:36 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Op is moaning about war spamming, which has become problematic in the last year.
Yes it was around beforehand but it's only been problematic since some clever clogs forced an issue.

Without an alternative we're only going to compound the issue.

Quote:
But it takes a pretty deluded individual to say that their is a good and healthy balance between War decs, Ganking, and the nebulous theme of Concord/security in HS at the moment

So don't, I didn't.

Edit: also ganking is irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.




And yet you just did. Huh. Guess that speaks volumes to your credibility then.

Quote me

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=