These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Crime & Punishment

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

I just took every ISK that Bombers Bar had - AMA

Author
Raven644
Gallente Volunteer Defense Forces
#61 - 2017-03-26 14:28:32 UTC
bottom line. PL won
Edwin Bauer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2017-03-26 16:52:38 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:


BB makes its ISK by killing PvE ships in null. It gives one good item each kill to the hunter of that kill, %50 of the rest of the loot to FC (who then distributes it to crucial roles in fleets), and takes other %50 for SRP.

*snipped for brevity's sake*

So that's basically what happened. If we had the main channel rights perhaps we would have kicked them instead. But they had it. But we had the website and access to the ISK. Hence drama.


So I take it that the rest of those guys will keep running the bar. Do you plan to run something similar yourself, according to your own vision, or will you just move on?

Cheers and best of luck to you both.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#63 - 2017-03-26 17:52:29 UTC
Internal chatlogs just came in

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#64 - 2017-03-26 18:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Linus Gorp
Edwin Bauer wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:


BB makes its ISK by killing PvE ships in null. It gives one good item each kill to the hunter of that kill, %50 of the rest of the loot to FC (who then distributes it to crucial roles in fleets), and takes other %50 for SRP.

*snipped for brevity's sake*

So that's basically what happened. If we had the main channel rights perhaps we would have kicked them instead. But they had it. But we had the website and access to the ISK. Hence drama.


So I take it that the rest of those guys will keep running the bar. Do you plan to run something similar yourself, according to your own vision, or will you just move on?

Cheers and best of luck to you both.

I tried that a few years ago after BB was butchered by Jayne and co. but couldn't quite get it running due to real life constraints. Building up a NPSI community takes more than a good-willed person with an idea. It takes a crapton of marketing (which I really, really, really suck at) and a boatload of work (which I didn't have the time for).
The group that I wanted to create was Menzoberranyr (channel still exists, though it's been dead for over 3 years). Basically a improved version of what BB was, which strived to offer more fleet variety, including combat blops fleets to a select few proven people.
The only part of Menzo that ever was active at all is the combat blops department, but not in the way that was envisioned. We're a tightly shut off close-knit NPSI blops group of a handful of competent people and the only way to get in is proven combat expertise and a vouch.. But even that group hasn't been active in a while now. Just a channel for shittalking these days.


Olmeca and I both recognize how much work it is to create a NPSI community and keep it running and neither one of us currently has the spare time nor willpower for that. This may or may not change in the future.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#65 - 2017-03-26 20:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Edwin Bauer wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:


BB makes its ISK by killing PvE ships in null. It gives one good item each kill to the hunter of that kill, %50 of the rest of the loot to FC (who then distributes it to crucial roles in fleets), and takes other %50 for SRP.

*snipped for brevity's sake*

So that's basically what happened. If we had the main channel rights perhaps we would have kicked them instead. But they had it. But we had the website and access to the ISK. Hence drama.


So I take it that the rest of those guys will keep running the bar. Do you plan to run something similar yourself, according to your own vision, or will you just move on?

Cheers and best of luck to you both.


o7

I still do solo things I like to do and they take all time I can allocate to Eve. Building an NPSI from scratch is too hard because Spectre or BB will have the first penetration advantage. I might start a corp in summer. I have a nice idea if it holds. RL is too hectic for me to attempt anything at this point.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Mortlake
Somalian Coast Guard Authority
#66 - 2017-03-26 22:25:45 UTC
It's a shame it's all turned toilet. BB was one of those things in Eve that I always wanted to try but never got around to doing.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#67 - 2017-03-26 22:42:33 UTC
Mortlake wrote:
It's a shame it's all turned toilet. BB was one of those things in Eve that I always wanted to try but never got around to doing.

Likewise.
Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#68 - 2017-03-26 23:18:37 UTC
We got our personal issues in BB but they still have some of the best cloaky FCs in this game. I'm just one guy. I will have fun killing some of their fleets when I have the time but one person won't be able to shut all their fleets down. So just try it. They are still nice people with unique content to offer. It becomes problematic only when you become part of the leadership, realize how much better it could have been, realize you are powerless to push them to be better, then begin having personal problems the more you voice your opinion. That has nothing to do with a newbro's experience so again, just try it.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
The Haggis Empire
#69 - 2017-03-27 06:12:37 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Amber Skir wrote:
Templeman N was the only reason to fly with Bombers Bar, when he went BB died. P


If you think so because his charisma, you are right htat there hasn't been such a charismatic FC after him. Nova tried to approximate, but nobody can be him.

If you think so because content, then BB had much better content only after Tempelman. Best bombing runs, new kind of bombing runs, billions of kills, titan kills, supercap kills all happened after Tempelman.

He was a charismatic guy with a great idea for Eve. He wasn't the best person in implementing the idea. For example, whenever he had a whaling fleet, he would often rely on 1 guy hunting a specific target or a region. It was only after him BB realized distributing multiple hunters inside a jumprange, instead of using 1 guy who aims to take all the credit and glory of hunting, was a best practice in covert ops whaling.



As is often the case elsewhere, in bombers bar they remember the charismatic friendly guy much more than the guy working behind the scenes to develop and influence things. Sometimes that can be good though.


Anyway it's pretty crazy to see Bombers Bar STILL going. I joined up in early 2012 when it was just kicking off and our fleets were under 10 people. To see it grow and develop and end up actually hunting and killing caps and supers is amazing.

But on the downside yeah there are a lot of shithead people that drummed up drama and caused problems in order to get themselves ahead. That's the same with just about any organization. The issue with NPSI groups is that they don't have the structure to enforce any form of power model.

I think there was a CSM member or something who said he'd do something about that. Instead CCP made small gang pvp in 0.0 great again. Whatever happened to all that...Cool
Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#70 - 2017-03-27 06:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

But on the downside yeah there are a lot of shithead people that drummed up drama and caused problems in order to get themselves ahead. That's the same with just about any organization. The issue with NPSI groups is that they don't have the structure to enforce any form of power model.

I think there was a CSM member or something who said he'd do something about that. Instead CCP made small gang pvp in 0.0 great again. Whatever happened to all that...Cool


All big entities need a shared power structure, yet it seems best ones in Eve are dictatorships which are run by smart, visionary people, and sharing wealth and resources seems to be enough for a common ground for null entities. Do you need to share more power in NPSI? Spectre seems to be doing fine (from the outside), due to a more dictatorial structure compared to BB. That's probably because Jayne is such a visionary. We tried a more democratic but also without creating too much bureaucratic structure, because that was how Tempelman found BB. That was also Nova's favorite way of managing BB and he wouldn't let anyone change that. I tried to push a little but man was tiring.

Democracy led to constant making of bad management decisions, resulting in an overall stale situation. Many problems went unaddressed. No bureaucracy led to no area specialization and no conflict resolution system.

Former meant people arbitrarily intervening with jobs that are being done that has nothing to do with them, or which they were no part of, which often made everything a slow painful process and caused lots of arguing. It also led to people doing stuff that others wanted to do (making/promoting a video of a good bombing run, when FC wants to make his own without your knowledge), more conflict.

Latter is the literal reason why me and Linus are out. Everyone is supposed to be equals in BB leadership, yet nobody knows what happens when someone allegedly does something wrong. Two random FCs started a conversation on slack and kicked me because I didn't give them a website. One FC took it on himself to kick Linus. All leading to this much harm. Maybe we could have solved issues if we had a defined process of what would happen. Hell, maybe I would stop posting on reddit about PL and give them the domain if I knew the sanction was getting kicked from my WH as well as getting banned, regardless of how unfair I would think these sanctions are. But nothing is really defined.

Nova thought less bureaucracy is really cool so here we are. This is yet another example on why I keep saying BB leadership lacks vision. I hope they read this and learn a little bit. BB will go on. Despite my awoxes or whatever, they still got great FCs, and will provide good content, often thanks to prior efforts of people like me. They will just not be what they could have been, but that's OK.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Clockwork Robot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#71 - 2017-03-29 03:17:45 UTC
Boom Boom Longtime wrote:
It is fascinating observing how grown men interact with each other on the internet Big smile



Like some kind of hybrid circle-jerk, and not-so-subtle one-upmanship.

Everyone here is tripping all over themselves to "politely" state that 22B is "so small, my good chap".

But I also see a few requests for some free stuff.

Ah well.
JetStream Drenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2017-03-29 11:56:31 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
yet it seems best ones in Eve are dictatorships which are run by smart, visionary people ...
Democracy led to constant making of bad management decisions, resulting in an overall stale situation. Many problems went unaddressed. No bureaucracy led to no area specialization and no conflict resolution system.


This is not a surprise at all really. Democracy irl and in games pretty much always fails in the end. 10 people with good intentions < 1 person with a vision and a few loyal captains.

I hope BB sorts itself out, but that probably won't happen at this point. Sometimes, the best thing is to start over.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#73 - 2017-03-29 12:24:44 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:
yet it seems best ones in Eve are dictatorships which are run by smart, visionary people ...
Democracy led to constant making of bad management decisions, resulting in an overall stale situation. Many problems went unaddressed. No bureaucracy led to no area specialization and no conflict resolution system.


This is not a surprise at all really. Democracy irl and in games pretty much always fails in the end. 10 people with good intentions < 1 person with a vision and a few loyal captains.

I hope BB sorts itself out, but that probably won't happen at this point. Sometimes, the best thing is to start over.

It always starts with a few people with good intentions and inevitably attracts corruption at some point, even more so in a game like EVE.

Took them a whole two days without me keeping them in check to commit a felony by breaking into a website and changing the contents and now there's a criminal investigation going on... Because of internet spaceship drama...

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Sasha Nemtsov
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2017-03-29 22:18:31 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:

This is not a surprise at all really. Democracy irl and in games pretty much always fails in the end. 10 people with good intentions < 1 person with a vision and a few loyal captains.

I suppose Democracy has a chance of working in peacetime (irl), but has absolutely no chance of working in a war situation. Even nominal 'democracies' in wartime have had to allow for 'streamlining the decision-making process', in order to be functional in the drastically altered environment.

In EVE - where war is a hard-wired constant - it's most unlikely that decisions relating to warmongering will be subject to broad discussion and balloting. Fine for the day-to-day non-critical stuff, perhaps.
Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#75 - 2017-03-30 01:01:26 UTC
I have a more optimistic view of democracy IRL in the sense that it's the best we can possibly have. If the system you have lets people to flourish and educate themselves on political issues enough (e.g. Northern Europe) people tend to make OK choices even though there are still problems. If you have a system that cockblocks the said education and flourishing in favor of oppressive groups/people (most authoritarian countries) or economic classes (US) democracy tends to dysfunction.

Good dictators are hard to come by. My country had one (Ataturk) to set it straight a century ago, but then they die and everything else approximates back to a shitshow. Good dictators are also never gonna rise to power given the current economic systems dominating the world, unless its a time of crisis.

Eve is different. The 'dictators' in Eve are often far from 'good', but they can't really cause damage people's real lives like RL dictators. When they create well functioning organizations with proper vision, and you are in their corp/alliance, you just accept that they have your ass. That implies a lot for IRL, but not for Eve. You can simply leave your 'country' and start living somewhere else without costing you much. And the dictatorial entity with good vision will always have the upper hand merely because the less amount of effort it takes to make a decision and act.

Then again another problem is the toxic atmosphere this situation creates. If places like r/Eve is contaminated with hateful toxic rage that's because the conditions in Eve that paves the way for this kind of people to rise to positions of influence.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#76 - 2017-04-01 11:18:15 UTC
I wasn't good enough of a bomber pilot to fly with BB. :(
Exaido
Fire Over Light
#77 - 2017-04-01 17:31:41 UTC
I have truly missed C&P
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#78 - 2017-04-02 01:29:49 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
decent stuffs



As far as democracy goes, I like to quote Winston Churchill ( at least I think he said this...), who said "Democracy is the absolute worst form of government. But we have tried all the rest....."

YMMV

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#79 - 2017-04-07 16:31:39 UTC
Atrol Nalelmir wrote:
Linus!

Good to see you are still playing dude! Are you going to take your new found wealth to Menzoberranyr? How's that project of yours going anyway?


Edwin Bauer wrote:
So I take it that the rest of those guys will keep running the bar. Do you plan to run something similar yourself, according to your own vision, or will you just move on?

Cheers and best of luck to you both.

After some careful consideration, I'm going to give Menzo another try.

I'll try to get some of the old crew together and try to make Menzo what it was created to be. The continuation of Bombers Bar on an improved foundation. The real Bombers Bar of old, not this shell that it now is.

I'm going to try to revive the Bombers Bar that died 3 and a half years ago. It's well beyond time to bring the fun back to covert ops NPSI.

In-game channel is Menzoberranyr

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2017-04-09 05:26:25 UTC
It is pathetic if you have to tell such a story by yourself.
If someone accuses you of it via C&P then I can harvest some tears and the perp gets some credit and reputation.
Like this it is just sad.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP