Player Features and Ideas Discussion

It's not "slightly" better, it's just better. 10mn fits are great, but MWD fits are just better except on something like the Algos where there is no sensible alternative to 10mn.

They literally do run rings around a 10mn fit. They have better damage, better range, are faster and way more agile. You have nothing to argue against this with. 10mn have their place, but that's where they need to stay.

IF you can fit an oversized AB without fitting costs, then yes they can be OP, but this is just not the case, and it never really was the case, even with T3Ds. They were NOT overpowered because of 10mn fits, they were overpowered because they were overpowered in a whole bunch of areas, and this happened to allow them to fly 10mn efficiently.

ABs are still inferior and they are still niche.

No

T3 cruisers are another case of the ship being overpowered, rather than ABs being on par with MWDs.

As for HACs, they'd still be so slow even with two ABs that I don't see how it would break the game, or how it would benefit armor ships any more than shield ships.

Again brawling with afterburners is only really possible when you use gates or stations as an escape route - in open space you need to be extremely vigilant with what you go after or else extremely lucky. Any MWD kiter will simply catch you and control you till death.

This just isn't correct, and I think the only way you could possibly think it's correct is if you've only encountered bad OAB pilots and never before the first big T3D nerf that heavily restricted their fitting space.

The only way a MWD fit wins out over an oversized AB fit is if it can more or less completely dictate range over the OAB fit. On T3Ds there just isn't enough difference in speed to make that reliable, so the MWD pilot needs to be basically flawless or the 10MN fit is going to nail him down and then he just hard loses because the 10MN fit can speed tank, disengage, and dictate range at will.

The only way OAB fits have been balanced is basically by being punished so hard that they're at or borderline non-viable and require expensive mods to fit which makes the impractical from an ISK efficiency perspective.

What you're talking about would effectively give us OABs with way less fitting cost that currently exists, even on ships like T3Cs that can currently comfortably fit a very very effective OAB fit, to the point that there are fleet doctrines using them. Fitting multiple ABs on the same ship would not be at all balanced.

Either that or you wouldn't get enough speed out of it to make it at all worthwhile, in which case the net effect is nothing so why add it and risk making something broken?

Is this really a 'I can't fly my orthrus properly CCP buff pls' thread?

Not disagreeing with this, but one of the big reasons T3Ds were (and arguably still are) OP is because they can run OAB fits. The same goes for T3Cs, though those have a mess of other problems still that will hopefully get nuked from orbit come summer.

Yes, OABs are OP. There is very little in the way of substantive disagreement here. They give you MWD speed without any of the weaknesses of a MWD with the comparatively small penalty of a high align time. Any ship that can feasibly fit one has already determined that the fitting requirements are manageable, and your suggestion here would essentially remove that as a problem for a lot of ships, because two same-size ABs is a *lot* easier to fit than one up-sized AB.

Oh, and the above conversation has only been getting into mirror-matches. One of the major reasons OABs are OP isn't mirror-matches, it's because of the massive freedom and power they give you against other fits. If you're losing you have a much greater ability to disengage than a MWD fit, and if you're burning in on someone who doesn't want you to you can't be scrammed and splattered at range.



They really really can't. On both Frig sized hulls, T3Ds, and Cruisers the differences in speed or agility aren't enough for the MWD to completely dictate range unless the AB pilot is an *idiot* or the MWD pilot is flawless, and it only takes one error on range control for the MWD pilot to end up scrammed and royally screwed.

What the AB fit ensures is that mistakes are *much* less fatal than on an MWD fit because scrams don't mean instant loss of range control and therefore death.



Again, to loop this back. ABs are used for one set of roles, MWDs are used for another. You are putting them in direct competition in a situation where the MWD holds clear advantages and then asking why the AB doesn't perform up to spec. That's like putting a racehorse in a swimming competition and then wondering why it lost.

OAB fits are the poster child of what happens when an AB can perform like a MWD and they're *hilariously* OP. There are very few times in the last 10 years where I can remember something getting as blatantly spot-nerfed as OAB fits were on T3Ds, and it's almost guaranteed that T3Cs are going to get the same treatment.

This does not mean that these ships aren't otherwise OP, but in this case the OAB is one of the big reasons these ships are OP. What you're suggesting here is to let anyone fit an OAB for the cost of a second slot and a *little* more fitting space than they might otherwise pay for an MWD. In exchange they get at or close to MWD performance without any of the drawbacks of an MWD.

As I and others have said, ABs are used primarily for tank, MWDs are used primarily for range control. When you can use an AB for both it becomes hilariously OP, the reason the Sansha ships aren't is because they fall into the second case I mentioned previously where the faster AB doesn't offer enough of a benefit in most cases.

Eve Online has a *long* history with trying to balance speed, I highly recommend you go read into the nano-nerf and some of the other changes that have been made over the years. All of it points to a giant bug-bunny bull's eye that says this idea would either be pointless or OP.

OABs are not inherently overpowered - to make them overpowered you need an overpowered ship.

They do NOT give you MWD speeds, not even on Sansha ships (EDIT: they do, actually, I was thinking of regular-sized-AB Sansha ships because OAB Sansha ships are not very good, this is just a technical error but the point still stands). They can only give you MWD speeds on certain ships like T3 cruisers which are overpowered to begin with and it's NOT because of OABs.

Again, I'm not a mathematician, but two same-sized ABs =/= one OAB. They wouldn't give you the same speed benefits, the fitting sacrifices are completely different (the sacrifice of a mid-slot versus rigs/lows), and the agility problem could probably be solved by adding some caveat that increased their agility to something reasonable.

OABs can still be webbed. Two webs is all it takes to reduce any OAB ship to around 500 m/s and webs have longer range than scrams except for heavy interdictors.



Yes, yes they are. The only exception is T3 cruisers.

There is no such thing as a mirror match when we're comparing an OAB fit to an MWD fit. The MWD fit basically wins every time, I'd love to see an example of an OAB fit that could reliably beat an MWD fit of the same class 1v1 - the only way you can do this is by bringing the MWD fit into scram range where it is at an inherent disadvantage - outside of scram range (where things matter most) MWDs are superior.



It's called "space". MWDs have the clear advantage anywhere in space unless for some reason you put them in scram range. MWDs have all of point range and beyond to do their work, so there's no reason to bring them into scram range against an AB ship.

Again it was not OABs that were overpowered, it was the ships. You could design overpowered ships to work with any modules, and just because some overpowered ships worked well with OABs does not mean that OABs are inherently overpowered or that ABs are equal to MWDs in any way - again, to even entertain the possibility you need to fit an OVERSIZED AB in the first place, and you usually need an overpowered ship to do it - how does that make ABs anywhere near as good as MWDs? It doesn't.

Cavalry Ravens and Torpedo Kestrels. Good times. Horribly broken times, but good nonetheless.

To the OP's suggestion: no. Full stop. Nano power-creep is bad, and devolving the current OAB meta into a DAB meta would be a step in the wrong direction.

The problem is you not correct.

Afterburners are not supposed to be in direct line on par with Micro Warp Drives.
It is in the name for FFS

Learn how to pilot and STFU already you dumb bleating carebear *****.

So why claim that they are equal to MWDs?