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Quafe Convoy Destroyed By Caldari Forces On Caldari-Gallente Border
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Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#21 - 2017-03-25 16:48:48 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
If it was a screw-up, my guess would be the cause was clear, unambiguous, and poorly-tailored orders, as in, "Close the border, and shoot any Federal traffic that tries to pass through!"

I could see a naval unit kind of going, "Well ... uh. This seems like a bad idea, but, orders are orders."

That would be assuming a screw-up, though. A few questions that pop to mind:

Why was Quafe trying a routine supply run? It's not like the present situation's been anything like quiet. There were thousands of people on those freighters; did nobody go, "Uh, boss, you know there's a blockade, right?" Why would anybody care so much about Obelisks full of empty bottles that they'd challenge a naval blockade to get them moved?

There was word, before, of civilian traffic being "stopped" at the border, as in, turned back, not blown up. Why wasn't that done, here?

The visuals here are too ... vivid, somehow. Too obviously awful. There's something wrong.

I'm inclined to agree, but the lack of any statement on behalf of the Navy is disturbing. Who issued what orders? This should all be a matter of record from bridge logs. No ambiguity.

What remains is that it happened. Still, I've certainly got many of the same questions.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Arrendis
TK Corp
#22 - 2017-03-25 16:49:45 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Why was Quafe trying a routine supply run? It's not like the present situation's been anything like quiet. There were thousands of people on those freighters; did nobody go, "Uh, boss, you know there's a blockade, right?" Why would anybody care so much about Obelisks full of empty bottles that they'd challenge a naval blockade to get them moved?


Because, as Makoto's indicated, the clear takeaway from the publicly-announced orders was 'no Federation ships can come in', with a strong implication of 'so get out'.

Which is what the Quafe convoy was doing: getting out.
Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#23 - 2017-03-25 16:52:20 UTC
Well to look at this from another perspective, and I'm not saying this is my positions, but wouldn't a convoy of freighters full of empty bottles be an excellent vehicle to smuggle something through the border? There's an espionage war going on here after all. We're just seeing the waves that break the surface.
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
#24 - 2017-03-25 16:54:13 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
The only reason why a border closure would make sense is to prevent passage of FIO operatives or other smuggled materials, so that State intelligence services could more effectively dredge for the on-going FIO intelligence operation and its materials.


The measure against this to close the borders for even all kind of civilian traffic is still extreme - unless there is something to hide at all costs. I'm having a hard time to understand why the CEP issues such a far reaching mandate but doesn't care to explain the reason publicly.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#25 - 2017-03-25 17:14:07 UTC
Brand managers. Can't live with them, can't live without them.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2017-03-25 17:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Arrendis wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Why was Quafe trying a routine supply run? It's not like the present situation's been anything like quiet. There were thousands of people on those freighters; did nobody go, "Uh, boss, you know there's a blockade, right?" Why would anybody care so much about Obelisks full of empty bottles that they'd challenge a naval blockade to get them moved?


Because, as Makoto's indicated, the clear takeaway from the publicly-announced orders was 'no Federation ships can come in', with a strong implication of 'so get out'.

Which is what the Quafe convoy was doing: getting out.


Well-- yes, only, (1) we're assuming they had the same kind-of ambiguous statement we did; (2) do you really think they were just attacked on the spot with no warning at all?

If you're approaching a border in an unarmed ship, and somebody with a gun says, "The border is closed; turn back now," do you really keep going? <--- If this isn't what happened, if State security forces really just opened fire without a word, I have even more questions.

Like, "Considering the ambiguous wording and the volume of State/Federal trade, why hadn't this happened five thousand times already?"
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#27 - 2017-03-25 17:42:45 UTC
I REALLY would like to hear something about the bridge logs.

And about the orders that sent a bunch of massive, fully manned container ships to a blockade.

I'm as shocked as anyone about this, but the more I consider it rationally, the more I see the same unanswered questions

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Burning Skies
Apocalypse Now.
#28 - 2017-03-25 17:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Yoshitaka Moromuo
If it is true that this flotilla was indeed departing Caldari space on a return trip, it could be troublesome. While the original report on the partial closure states a suspension of all Gallente non-capsuleer traffic, we are not all here with a copy of the orders that actually govern this partial closure.

The right thing to do here would be to call for the release of a full copy of the orders creating the partial closure, and - where possible - communications logs from the time immediately surrounding the flotilla attack.

The appropriate party (or parties), as evidence should show, should be held responsible here.

Addendum: I appear to have been touching on the same questions as Saya above me...
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#29 - 2017-03-25 19:09:46 UTC
While this certainly looks troubling the Navy's silence is most likely caused by an investigation into the incident that they don't want to make a statement without having the results of.

I'm going to go ahead and assume credible intelligence pertaining to something in those freighters. Perhaps something that then turned out to not actually be in said freighters. If I was trying to stir up trouble between the Federation and the State, this would be exactly how I'd do it.

Doesn't mean someone wearing Caldari Grey hasn't been a complete idiot, though.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#30 - 2017-03-25 19:23:41 UTC
They said they'll close borders.

Then they actually closed borders and enforced it.

Now everyone is shocked.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-03-25 19:32:52 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
They said they'll close borders.

Then they actually closed borders and enforced it.

Now everyone is shocked.
You should read the border closure notice more carefully. These were State citizens leaving the State, not Federation citizens entering the State which is what was prohibited.
Quote:
In addition to this, passage of all Gallente non-capsuleer traffic across the Caldari-Gallente border has been suspended by Caldari Customs, and the Chief Executive Panel has warned Caldari corporations currently engaged in business with Gallente registered organizations that no non-capsuleer traffic will be permitted to cross the border into the State, regardless of any pre-approved customs and immigration documentation.
These State citizens were not crossing into the State but into the Federation, which was never prohibited.


At first it disgusted me how eager every Caldari pilot was to blame anything other than their own State but, with reflection I have realized that you are all shocked and looking for another explanation and not simply trying to spin a narrative.

Well, except for the clear provists but no one I think expects anything at all from them. I pray you Caldari do find another explanation or that there is one now. For the sake of the State and for the sake of those pilots who hoped such things died with Heth.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2017-03-25 19:34:44 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
They said they'll close borders.

Then they actually closed borders and enforced it.

Now everyone is shocked.


There's a little difference between closing the border and, "Welcome to the border. Please stand by for summary execution."

That last seems just a tiny bit strange. Usually there's at least a little bit of, like, gun-pointing and comms-yelling before anybody actually starts blowing people up. At least you'd hope so.

Well, at least I'd hope so....
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#33 - 2017-03-25 19:36:27 UTC
Where did you get the idea that there were none?
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#34 - 2017-03-25 19:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Where did you get the idea that there were none?

That's the information we're missing, at this time. One would hope that unarmed freighters would not try to run a blockade if said blockade pointed a few dozen launchers their way and called for a halt. And if there were some vast mitigating circumstance, why hasn't it been used as propaganda at the very least?

Personally, I'm hoping to hear more on this soon.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2017-03-25 19:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Where did you get the idea that there were none?


I didn't, but that's sort of the tone that's being set. There are questions any way we look at it.

If the convoy was ordered to turn back, and didn't, why?

If they were just summarily destroyed at the border, why?

The whole thing's just bleeding weirdness. It's not so much shocking as ... bizarre.

My best current guess is that they were trying to smuggle something out in the most innocuous-looking of innocuous-looking convoys and called the border guards' bluff, hoping the State would rather see them get away than create such an obviously awful public incident.

"We're going through. If you want an incident where you're responsible for blowing up a bunch of unarmed transports full of soda bottles and everybody aboard, well, obviously we can't stop you! But that's your call." --Sadly Deceased Convoy Commander, miscalculating.

... that would seem to fit. But there's too little information.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#36 - 2017-03-25 19:53:07 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Where did you get the idea that there were none?


I didn't, but that's sort of the tone that's being set. There are questions any way we look at it.

If the convoy was ordered to turn back, and didn't, why?

If they were just summarily destroyed at the border, why?

The whole thing's just bleeding weirdness. It's not so much shocking as ... bizarre.

My best current guess is that they were trying to smuggle something out in the most innocuous-looking of innocuous-looking convoys and called the border guards' bluff, hoping the State would rather see them get away than create such an obviously awful public incident.

"We're going through. If you want an incident where you're responsible for blowing up a bunch of unarmed transports full of soda bottles and everybody aboard, well, obviously we can't stop you! But that's your call." --Sadly Deceased Convoy Commander, miscalculating.

... that would seem to fit. But there's too little information.

Never. EVER... Try to bluff a serious checkpoint. They're there to keep you from passing, not ensure your safety while doing so.

If that was the case, I guarantee whichever freight lugger made that call was never a FedNav man. They're not that stupid.

My question now is; Was there any communication at all?
Jade Blackwind
#37 - 2017-03-25 20:11:36 UTC
I wonder what, or who, actually was in those freighters.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#38 - 2017-03-25 20:29:59 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Let's get past the 'destroyed unarmed freighters' part because that's very easy to get stuck on.

Yes, killing 4,000 people on unarmed transports can be a bit distracting. We were discussing bias earlier....

Now I know what you meant and understand your comments were more nuanced, I just wanted to remind you of how easy it is making cheap points on serious comments.

I would also invite you to reread the 'excuses' given thus far by our State friends, they basically come down to, 'it's the Federations fault.'

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#39 - 2017-03-25 20:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aradina Varren
Not sure which thread you're reading, so far I've seen "There's probably more to this", "The freighter pilots shouldn't have ignored warnings", "The customs officials massively overreacted" and "Quafe were trying to smuggle something out".

Overall, people are being reasonable. Waiting for more information before jumping to a conclusion.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#40 - 2017-03-25 20:40:59 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
The sticking point, from a legal perspective, is that the vessel and cargo belong to a Federation-registered corporation. It may be that the closure is interpreted to be not just or personnel, but materiel.

Quafe would also happen to be a Caldari registered corporation as far as I'm aware. Somewhat odd in that regard to be sure. But really..... That just makes shooting them even worse.