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Can someone explain projectile ammo to me?
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Siegereaver
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-09-14 14:53:50 UTC
Ive been mainly flying missile ships and the ammo is pretty straight forward, what type of damage do you want to do?

But as I am playing with Minmatar ships the ammo is much more confusing to me. There seem to be mixed damage types and I am clueless when it comes to range bonus, ideal range and other specifics. Are there popular ammo types that work well or ones I should be focusing on?

I have read some of the wiki pages on ammo and they give a lot of good information about the ammo, just don't help clue me in on what all the info means.
Flakey Foont
#2 - 2011-09-14 15:06:46 UTC
Download and read this:

Isk The Guide
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-09-14 15:13:25 UTC
Projectile ammo in it's current incarnation has mixed damage types, but tends to deal more of one type over others.

As with all other turret ammunition, the closer range ammo deal more damage (this is ammo with a negative range bonus). There are three "categories" for range with projectile ammo: close range, medium range and long range. The medium range ammo also have a tracking bonus on them, making it easier to hit those fast moving targets.

EMP = close range EM damage
Phased Plasma = close range Thermal damage
Fusion = close range Explosive.

Titanium Sabot = medium range Kinetic damage
Depleted Uranium = medium range, mixed damage (equal parts thermal and explosive, part kinetic)

Proton = long range EM
Carbonized Lead = long range Kinetic
Nuclear = long range Explosive

Note that all projectile ammo has 2 or 3 damage types
Siegereaver
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-09-14 15:16:21 UTC
Thank you Taedrin, that is a great summary of what I needed.
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
#5 - 2011-09-14 15:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kilrayn
To put it simply, guns are missiles (as you've starting noticing) are totally different. Missiles really are easy mode. Just get in range and they hit. There is a lot more to pay attention to when using gun turrets. Ammo changing your optimal range as you've seen is one thing. Here's a few tips.

First, you want to understand how optimal and fall-off work. Optimal is your sweet spot, and is the range you want to keep your target at (also, due to ammo changing your optimal most of the time, check your turrets info AFTER its fitted on your ship with ammo loaded). Fall-off is how far you can get away from optimal and still be accurate.

Using some arbitrary numbers, say you have a 20km optimal with a 5km fall-off. Your sweet spot is 20km +5km, giving you a range of up to 25km as your sweet spot. If you go 1 more fall-off from there, 25-30 km, you can hit your target about half the time. With 1 more fall-off, you'll just about never hit.

Now for proj damage types, that's just a nice perk they have, being able to switch damage types, unlike hybrids. You should be trying to match the damage type for whatever your target is weakest against.

The last numbers that are really important are tracking speed and angular velocity. Your guns have a tracking speed, basically how fast they can move. If your target has a higher angular velocity than your tracking, you won't hit him (this is why large turrets can't hit smaller frigs orbiting them). You can add angular velocity to your overview to see it while you're flying.

Hope this helps some o7

"Music is a mysterious thing. Sometimes it makes people remember things they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember or not." - Citan Uzuki, Xenogears
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#6 - 2011-09-14 15:40:58 UTC
I like this chart

Note that Hail and Barrage can only be used in T2 Autocannons and Quake and Tremor can only be used in T2 Artilery

The Drake is a Lie
Yabu Kusanagi
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-09-14 17:06:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Yabu Kusanagi
My entire experience with ammunition says that up to the optimal range, given that both targets are standing still, that you'll do full damage. Once you reach optimal, your damage will decrease to 50% once you reach optimal + falloff. Following that, at optimal + 2x falloff you'll do close to zero damage.

The information regarding angular velocity is correct, but there is a bit more to the reason why large guns do reduced damage to small ships. The guns signature resolution needs to be equal to, or smaller than the target it is shooting at to do full damage. Hence, a large gun, that typically has a signature resolution of 400 will only do half damage to a ship that has a signature radius of 200.

Hope this helps.
Wa'roun
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-14 23:51:17 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
I like this chart

Note that Hail and Barrage can only be used in T2 Autocannons and Quake and Tremor can only be used in T2 Artilery



Who ever made that chart should have used the default colors for ammo type IMO (blue=EM, gold/yellow/orange whatever = explosive, gray=kinetic, red=thermal).
foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
#9 - 2011-09-15 07:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: foksieloy
Simmilar graphs about projectiles you can find at http://www.rifterdrifter.com/

Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior.
Ulmagod
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-09-15 09:06:32 UTC
Kilrayn wrote:
Using some arbitrary numbers, say you have a 20km optimal with a 5km fall-off. Your sweet spot is 20km +- 5km, giving you a range of 15km to 25km as your sweet spot.


Most of Kilrayn's advice is sound, but I must emphasis that this is wrong. Falloff plays no part in the calculation if the range is less than optimal.

Ignoring other factors such as tracking, speed, sig radius etc.

Up to Optimal = full damage
At Optimal + Falloff = half damage
At Optimal + (2 x Falloff) = zero damage

Note that the reduction is not linear, it follows a sine wave. Thus at Optimal + (0.5 Falloff) the damage is reduced to 0.8535 or something like that, not 0.75

Falloff is extremely important for projectile turrets. It is common to fight in Falloff due to the fact that projectile weapons have short optimal range but considerably bigger falloff ranges and note that ammo type does not usually effect falloff.

So for example, with small Autocannons, you may find your optimal is 1500m but your Falloff is 5000m. You then load short range projectile ammo and your OPTIMAL range is reduced by 50% to 750m, but your Falloff stays at 5000m. It is very difficult to orbit at under 750m and even if you do, you will likely be hit with bigger penalties for tracking. However, if you fight at 1750m that is only one fifth of falloff, and the penatly is negliable for fighting at that range, maybe a 3% or 4% reduction to your damage output with no or much reduced tracking problems.

For other weapon types, Hybrids and Lasers have much reduced falloff ranges compared to their optimal range and thus you should always aim to fight within optimal on them. While missiles have no falloff whatsoever.
Starnap
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-09-15 11:58:19 UTC
Siegereaver wrote:
Are there popular ammo types that work well or ones I should be focusing on?



For pvp, a good basic rule is to shoot EMP at shield tanks and Fusion at armour tanks. Always use faction.

Of course there are situations where that won't work and will just get you killed, but meh, that's Eve Big smile
foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
#12 - 2011-09-15 12:43:46 UTC
In virtually all cases except T2 caldari ships, your goto ammo is phased plasma. It is either the best ammo type, or the second best.

Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior.
Solomar Espersei
Quality Assurance
#13 - 2011-09-15 18:47:29 UTC
Also note that once you get Barrage for T2 ACs, you may consider this as your basic load if it looks like you will begin fights at range. You would also be wise to carry some Titanium Sabot in case you need better tracking (I believe this is still the case).

Quality Assurance Recruiting intrepid explorers and BlOps/Cov Ops combat enthusiasts
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-09-16 19:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbelo Valentinian
One top tip to really start to understand your turrents more intuitively is to use Tactical Overlay.

Using Tactical Overlay is a "must" for all sorts of reasons, but one of the reasons is this:-

If you hover over your gun icon with TO on, you will notice that two ghostly "bubbles" appear around your ship. The inner bubble shows you the optimal range of your turrets, the outer bubble shows their falloff (note that these will change with mods and ammo).

If you start playing around with that, you'll get a good "feel" for what optimal and falloff represent. All things being equal, for hybrids and lasers you want to be hitting as close to optimal as possible to get the most damage out of your guns - but the optimal is correspondingly generous with those types of turrets. With projectiles, on the other hand, optimal is relatively much shorter, and falloff much longer - but to compensate, you're getting a pretty decent damage from your projectiles well into falloff - maybe about a third into falloff is still pretty good, and even 3/4 falloff does some damage, unlike with hybrids and lasers, which really do relatively little damage at that point.

Note that these "bubbles" in Tactical Overlay show up for any mod that has an effect at a distance (e.g. webs, neuts, etc.)
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
#15 - 2011-09-16 21:15:54 UTC
Ulmagod wrote:
Kilrayn wrote:
Using some arbitrary numbers, say you have a 20km optimal with a 5km fall-off. Your sweet spot is 20km +- 5km, giving you a range of 15km to 25km as your sweet spot.


Most of Kilrayn's advice is sound, but I must emphasis that this is wrong. Falloff plays no part in the calculation if the range is less than optimal.

Ignoring other factors such as tracking, speed, sig radius etc.

Up to Optimal = full damage
At Optimal + Falloff = half damage
At Optimal + (2 x Falloff) = zero damage

Note that the reduction is not linear, it follows a sine wave. Thus at Optimal + (0.5 Falloff) the damage is reduced to 0.8535 or something like that, not 0.75

Falloff is extremely important for projectile turrets. It is common to fight in Falloff due to the fact that projectile weapons have short optimal range but considerably bigger falloff ranges and note that ammo type does not usually effect falloff.

So for example, with small Autocannons, you may find your optimal is 1500m but your Falloff is 5000m. You then load short range projectile ammo and your OPTIMAL range is reduced by 50% to 750m, but your Falloff stays at 5000m. It is very difficult to orbit at under 750m and even if you do, you will likely be hit with bigger penalties for tracking. However, if you fight at 1750m that is only one fifth of falloff, and the penatly is negliable for fighting at that range, maybe a 3% or 4% reduction to your damage output with no or much reduced tracking problems.

For other weapon types, Hybrids and Lasers have much reduced falloff ranges compared to their optimal range and thus you should always aim to fight within optimal on them. While missiles have no falloff whatsoever.


Good to know, editing post for correctness.

"Music is a mysterious thing. Sometimes it makes people remember things they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember or not." - Citan Uzuki, Xenogears