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Alphas and F2P Have Failed
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#521 - 2017-03-23 22:12:30 UTC
Someone has to buy that gametime though and realistically many older players will still be paying atleast semi-frequently for some accounts even if they are fully funding others via PLEX.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#522 - 2017-03-23 22:18:25 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
This is nonsense even from a factual level.

According to EVE Offline statistics, the current 24 high is 35,434 on Wednesday. The high of the week was PCU of 42,395. By contrast the maximum prior to Ascension was pushing 29k at most. To get even above 35k PCU you have to go all the way back to June and the infamous WWB.

That means our new normal was the most active time in the year leading up to ascension.
.


The problem is money. How many of these 40k are paying customers?

Alphas dont pay and oldies dont pay. There is a (probably) smaller
percentage thay buy subscriptions.


Oldies pay...unless they let their sub lapse.


Ok, bad choice of word. I meant people that have reached such
a level they can buy gametime with ISK.


Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,

Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.

So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
An-Nur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#523 - 2017-03-24 04:30:01 UTC
Removing mod/ship restrictions looks good at first glance, but that's working on the premise that is the missing attraction to get people into the game. It's not. If you really like the game you would sub to take advantage.
Anything that messes with the current gameplay will only kill it for the current base.
As I said before the only way to attract new players is to offer new content that doesn't mess with current game play. Something like Dust (but obviously not Dust) that gives other play style options in or as an adjunct to the game. This is a wasted conversation. EVE is a niche game. Anything that messes with its uniqueness will only just kill it for the current base. You want to make it into a different game? Do it with that in mind
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#524 - 2017-03-24 08:55:53 UTC
The problem isn't EVE, The problem is a huge lack of advertisement.

not a single call for more advertisments of the product Roll during this thread of bollox talk.

we all know the product rocks, we can only do so much telling mates about it, making videos, hosting websites and so on.

so maybe it's a sales issue?

Hey CCP sales,, get off your arses please and thanks very much ShockedBig smile
Mistress Corvinus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2017-03-24 11:34:08 UTC
The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main.
An-Nur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#526 - 2017-03-24 11:44:47 UTC
Mistress Corvinus wrote:
The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main.

The skill point advantage is easily overcome with injectors. Its a silly argument. You'll overcome that and then complain vets have an unfair advantage in controlling null space.
As has been pointed out ad nauseum sp dont mean all that much beyond a point. Skill and knowledge do. If alliances like Brave, Pandemic horde can thrive sp are obviously not much of an argument
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#527 - 2017-03-24 14:34:30 UTC
Mistress Corvinus wrote:
The Only way to fix the issue, is to address the extreme SP advantage vets have over new players. The only way to do so is to either launch a additional server along side tranq and see how low sp players react aka if they flock to it, or completely wipe the main.


I disagree - but the game does need a good balance of content that caters for the SP difference - especially I think some people who aren't maybe the immediate target audience for Eve online but not that far off get put off by the perception of the advantage of SP before they've really got upto speed with the game.

I was kind of mulling over the potential of canned PVP arenas in this context, though one of the draws for the game for me was spontaneous rather than arranged/contrived PVP.

I have almost zero experience of faction warfare so some of this might be entirely stupid but I was kind of thinking it would be kind of cool if there was say NPC faction titans in highsec and some kind of assembly/staging post in the relevant opposing lowsec faction warfare space where people could gather and join say a restricted 5 man t1 cruiser hull fleet (no corp restrictions from the highsec side, other side have to be part of the relevant faction) and be jumped into a walled garden 5v5 scenario in the relevant lowsec space where the winning fleet get some LP reward - scenarios being along the lines of say an NPC gallente federation rorqual supplying operations behind enemy lines suffered warp drive failure and is stranded in panic mode while trying to repair it - winning conditions being if it manages to warp or not after coming out of panic mode or one fleet is wiped with the deadspace pocket locked only to those 5v5 combatants (atleast until one side is defeated), etc. etc. the point being that in these kind of scenarios it would balance out the amount that skill points affected the outcome and also if implemented right with a progression from frig upwards would possibly attract people to go omega to get into the higher tiers that required ships they can't fly - plus be a reason for alphas to keep coming back if they can take part in upto the cruiser tier, etc.
Louise Verger
Alsouette Haven
#528 - 2017-03-24 14:42:24 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,

Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.

So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.


The point is why Bob would like to pay double price (or even more) and what would do Joe if Bob chooses not to buy extra plex or just leaves the game?

An-Nur wrote:
EVE is a niche game. Anything that messes with its uniqueness will only just kill it for the current base. You want to make it into a different game? Do it with that in mind


What do you think is so special about EVE? If the answer is PvP then what is so special about PvP in EVE that makes the game unique?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#529 - 2017-03-24 14:51:59 UTC
Louise Verger wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,

Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.

So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.


The point is why Bob would like to pay double price (or even more) and what would do Joe if Bob chooses not to buy extra plex or just leaves the game?



Then Joe has 3 options. Start paying sub, find another PLEX provider on the market or quit.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2017-03-24 14:56:41 UTC
Louise Verger wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,

Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.

So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.


The point is why Bob would like to pay double price (or even more) and what would do Joe if Bob chooses not to buy extra plex or just leaves the game?

An-Nur wrote:
EVE is a niche game. Anything that messes with its uniqueness will only just kill it for the current base. You want to make it into a different game? Do it with that in mind


What do you think is so special about EVE? If the answer is PvP then what is so special about PvP in EVE that makes the game unique?


The Joe would get his plex from frank who is still buying them for isk, and if frank quits the game then john would do it, if enough people stopped buying plex to get IG isk, then joe would either need to start subbing his account, or let lapse. but at that point the game will probably be ACTUALLY dead or in its death throes since at that point ccp would be hemoraging money.

as for the second, what is special about eve is that it is one of the few "unrestricted" environments in gaming, and one of, if not the only, with full destruction pvp (and pve, although pve deaths are less common) so your actions actually matter. loosing a ship or destroying someone elses ship have an impact greater than "running back to your body"

yes some of the big alliances like to tout how "its already been replaced" that doesn't mean that the destruction didn't have an impact, it just means that they did the work of having a new ship ready to go before hand. which means that miners (either their own or others) had to go and sit in belts, manufacturers had to build the ships, t2 bp's had to be invented etc.

If pvp in the game changed, or the loss from pvp became less permanent, the entire eve economy would collapse. so yes permanent destruction pvp is the heart of eve its what keeps the entire system beating.
An-Nur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#531 - 2017-03-24 15:04:57 UTC


An-Nur wrote:
EVE is a niche game. Anything that messes with its uniqueness will only just kill it for the current base. You want to make it into a different game? Do it with that in mind


What do you think is so special about EVE? If the answer is PvP then what is so special about PvP in EVE that makes the game unique?
[/quote]

If you look at a lot of the other MMO's out there, the majority are fantasy RPG. Thats the first thing. That and they are first person in a way EVE is not makes for some obvious distinguishing features in player bases. Yes there is cross over I'm sure, but the next feature of EVE'S learning curve and the particulars of its harsh environment I just don't see as attractive to a lot of gamers. The other big one is that in many ways its "spreadsheets in space." There's no getting round this, and combining that with the learning curve, your either going to like it and refer to it as theirycrafting, or go no way thats just not what I call fun, and its too much for my brain. Then you have time invested. Viewed in line with the harsh reality of losing ships in gameplay, this makes for a very unique psychological experience, that im not sure is that attractive too many game players. You either like all these elements or you don't
Louise Verger
Alsouette Haven
#532 - 2017-03-24 16:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Louise Verger
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:

The Joe would get his plex from frank who is still buying them for isk, and if frank quits the game then john would do it, if enough people stopped buying plex to get IG isk, then joe would either need to start subbing his account, or let lapse. but at that point the game will probably be ACTUALLY dead or in its death throes since at that point ccp would be hemoraging money.

as for the second, what is special about eve is that it is one of the few "unrestricted" environments in gaming, and one of, if not the only, with full destruction pvp (and pve, although pve deaths are less common) so your actions actually matter. loosing a ship or destroying someone elses ship have an impact greater than "running back to your body"

yes some of the big alliances like to tout how "its already been replaced" that doesn't mean that the destruction didn't have an impact, it just means that they did the work of having a new ship ready to go before hand. which means that miners (either their own or others) had to go and sit in belts, manufacturers had to build the ships, t2 bp's had to be invented etc.

If pvp in the game changed, or the loss from pvp became less permanent, the entire eve economy would collapse. so yes permanent destruction pvp is the heart of eve its what keeps the entire system beating.


Yes, economy is what makes EVE special. In most of the other games everything is way too readily available and can not be destroyed. Usually developers deliberately remove every element that can bring competition into the game. They even go further removing social elements, which already have very little chance to develop without economy and open world PvP.
In EVE most of the t1 stuff is also readily available, everyone can build it. But eventually it all gets blown up and thus PvP plays a key role in the economy regulation preventing overproduction.
There is something about PvP in EVE which is actually unique - victim is almost always helpless. With proper fit and being constantly alert players engaged in PvE have decent chances to escape but that is it. Moreover, most of the safety measures have huge opportunity costs, i.e. dying more frequently doesn't always mean making less profit. That makes attempts to force PvE players fight fruitless. So long as this aspect of PvP remains intact gankers will constantly whine that it's to easy to avoid PvP and PvE players will whine that it's too easy for gankers to harass them.

To An-Nur
Those a mostly visual differences. They don't matter very much.
Alexander Bor
Polaris Global
#533 - 2017-03-24 17:23:53 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
EvE is Dying
Soon™


Edit: you want big numbers back?
let the game go back to the true eve!
NO casuals
NO plex

ONLY sub
ONLY nerds and heavy farmer

#SkillsRequired #NoCreditCardAllowed

Cool


Edit2: the competition should be on how much you can do ingame, now how much plex you can buy with money Cool


true
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#534 - 2017-03-24 17:30:42 UTC
Rollback to 2012
Gillian Roibos
Schism's Church
#535 - 2017-03-24 17:33:46 UTC
As a reference to the only other MMO that I played in my life, Ultima Online (that was even more of an addiction than EVE), I believe that few changes could make a big difference.

- Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.

- Provide a storyline, CCP driven, where exceptional events happen and keep players entertained. This might go against the idea of interfering with game, but I believe that null politics are not enough, nor of interest to the majority of players currently. There should be epic battles between factions, and player + NPCs should be joining in.

- There should be special characters / faction leaders, seen around the universe and small glimps of storyline should reach most users on a fairly regular basis.

Other than that I think CCP is doing a fine job with PLEX and microtransactions.
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
#536 - 2017-03-24 17:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximillian Bonaparte
Gillian Roibos wrote:

- Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.

- Provide a storyline, CCP driven, where exceptional events happen and keep players entertained. This might go against the idea of interfering with game, but I believe that null politics are not enough, nor of interest to the majority of players currently. There should be epic battles between factions, and player + NPCs should be joining in.

- There should be special characters / faction leaders, seen around the universe and small glimps of storyline should reach most users on a fairly regular basis.

Other than that I think CCP is doing a fine job with PLEX and microtransactions.


Most of highsec is already relatively safe, and I believe griefing in the rookie systems is a bannable offence.

When I was a noob the looming danger was what kept me in the game and kept it interesting. It is what makes eve stand out - otherwise easier to play elite dangerous....ofc i dont as much because in elite dangerous there are no complex challenges to overcome that would ruin my game and reputation if I fail :) Or overwhelming satisfaction when I succeed!

Interstellar Booty Hunters - Pirate Small Gang PvP Forever!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#537 - 2017-03-24 17:58:17 UTC
Louise Verger wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Nobody buys gametime with ISK without there being cash some how involved. Here is how it works,

Bob wants ISK, but doesn't have any. Bob does have a good job, so Bob spends $19.95 and buys a PLEX. Bob then puts the PLEX on the in-game market. Joe buys the PLEX for ISK.

So Bob pays for his sub, and also Joe's, and at a premium I might add. In exchange Joe gives Bob ISK.


The point is why Bob would like to pay double price (or even more) and what would do Joe if Bob chooses not to buy extra plex or just leaves the game?


Who cares? No really, who cares? If that is how Bob wants to spend his time and money, who are you to butt in and start commenting. It is a voluntary transaction between Bob and CCP and Bob and Joe. Go mind your own business.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alexander Bor
Polaris Global
#538 - 2017-03-24 18:00:30 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".

Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it).


The problem being raised is really actual. The effect is not like we were waiting for.

Besides that players (both newcomers and old) don't take game in alpha state as normal - new players stop playing in 1-2 days, old players don't log after first try.


Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):

* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time.
* Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space.
* Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec.
* Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec.
* Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).


*No
*Not brings much
*No
*No
*Maybe

I will be pleased to explain.

*Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time.

It will cause more chaos and amplify existing negative effects from alphas by thousand rates. I think slight increase in "numbers' don't worth it. Why slight? - because factors of players being attracted and remain (what is more important) are far beyond all this alpha sh*t.

*Limit Alphas to high-sec only.

Sov-holders and resident of low-secs are those who must care all the issues with pilots passing through.

*Move L4 agents

Very dangerous and must not be done. The reason is a current real problems in PVE branch of game. Otherwise lvl 5 must be added to high-secs.

Regarding Incursions. Don't we already have increased payouts for low-secs? I think that's enough. And also moving them to lows can drop the activity in this branch (that also not very healthy in the present state).

* Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas

I think current Insurance system is perfect as the result of it's evolution through the path of trials and mistakes so better not to touch it. At least there are more actual problems in EVE.

So... alpha-states is really not so easy phenomena as might appear at first sight. The idea is good. But it do should had been worked out more intensively before release. And of course alphas can't be the tool for increasing in numbers. So one should discuss alpha states in kind another view not touching numbers problem.
Gillian Roibos
Schism's Church
#539 - 2017-03-24 18:14:22 UTC
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:
Gillian Roibos wrote:

- Provide a confined, safe environment for new players. A handful of systems, not more. Perhaps with a training corp with the remit to educate newbies on how to do things. To get out, where the real game starts, you need to sub. This should ensure that newbies have time to understand about the game until they feel ready to get out there, and would restrict the impact of alpha alts.

- Provide a storyline, CCP driven, where exceptional events happen and keep players entertained. This might go against the idea of interfering with game, but I believe that null politics are not enough, nor of interest to the majority of players currently. There should be epic battles between factions, and player + NPCs should be joining in.

- There should be special characters / faction leaders, seen around the universe and small glimps of storyline should reach most users on a fairly regular basis.

Other than that I think CCP is doing a fine job with PLEX and microtransactions.


Most of highsec is already relatively safe, and I believe griefing in the rookie systems is a bannable offence.

When I was a noob the looming danger was what kept me in the game and kept it interesting. It is what makes eve stand out - otherwise easier to play elite dangerous....ofc i dont as much because in elite dangerous there are no complex challenges to overcome that would ruin my game and reputation if I fail :) Or overwhelming satisfaction when I succeed!


The problem is not about providing a safe environment per se (maybe a bit), but rather a confined environment without the frustration of seeing more seasoned player ratting in a Rattlesnake next to them. Leaving out the curiosity of those stories going on "out there"
Punctator
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#540 - 2017-03-24 18:16:48 UTC
time to return game to the players.

1. CCP do what you do now about moons - it is VERY GOOD
Let players have thair small kingdoms of dreams - destroy big empires builded by rmt lords,
and moon changes is one of the right ways to do this.

2. cloaking should eat fuel. Harasment is not a gameplay style wich give you new players
old and mighty players killing newbies - it sucks, so new players quit.

3. old, mighty players should pay more for gameplay, new should play less. We have now situation like this.
Lords and very powerfull people control this game and not paying, noobs pays and beeing harased
by old lords. Old and mighty should pay real money for ability to use next generation of ships beyound supers.

4. next generation of destruction needed - new ship clases - battle stars or somethink - ships where
not only ingame industry, minerals, moon goo, Pi, but real money is needed to fly it,
using plex to feed ship timer should not be allowed, only real credit card. This ships should be much more
powerfull than supercapitals now and should be able kill several supercapitals on thair own and be very very deadly for
even large amount of subcaps.

In old days... Titan was that kind of ship - everyone dream, powerfull, deadly legend, but now it is using in blobs like
drakes - people should have a chance to feel power again, but not blob power, we have too much of it!

where is no dreams - there is no game.
where is no game - there are no players.