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War decs : not achieving objectives

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Rena Skjem
Oramara Trade Guild
#361 - 2017-03-22 10:15:13 UTC
Yes. Lets reduce income that requires a coordinated effort of 40ppl that are in space and in their ships...

I mean since they are in HS they completely immune and there is absolutely no risk, right?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#362 - 2017-03-22 10:49:09 UTC
Rena Skjem wrote:
Yes. Lets reduce income that requires a coordinated effort of 40ppl that are in space and in their ships...

I mean since they are in HS they completely immune and there is absolutely no risk, right?

Thats the thing the people meuling about wars always gloss over.
wars are so trivial to shake off that they're functionally and in a very real and practical sense, optional.

we can dec all we like and the target can drop the corp and reform ,
literally as fast as they can get their members to dock up and click like three or four times.
50-500 mill just wasted.

this is why incursion runners arent being constantly mauled.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Rena Skjem
Oramara Trade Guild
#363 - 2017-03-22 11:06:03 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

this is why incursion runners arent being constantly mauled.


Why do you want to pew pew vs ships that were specifically enginered for that one particular task(killing sansha rats, not other players)?
Thats kinda risk averse.
Salvos Rhoska
#364 - 2017-03-22 14:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Rena Skjem wrote:
Why do you want to pew pew vs ships that were specifically enginered for that one particular task(killing sansha rats, not other players)?

Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task.

Rena Skjem wrote:
Yes. Lets reduce income that requires a coordinated effort of 40ppl that are in space and in their ships...

I mean since they are in HS they completely immune and there is absolutely no risk, right?

Glad you agree.

Although Id point out they arent completely immune to risk, though no more or less than anyone else in HS.

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Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#365 - 2017-03-22 14:46:11 UTC
Rena Skjem wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

this is why incursion runners arent being constantly mauled.


Why do you want to pew pew vs ships that were specifically enginered for that one particular task(killing sansha rats, not other players)?
Thats kinda risk averse.




I want to steal all their expensive mods that they fitted and put them in a station hanger never to be seen again.
Salvos Rhoska
#366 - 2017-03-22 15:12:39 UTC
Agent 5B wrote:
Rena Skjem wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

this is why incursion runners arent being constantly mauled.


Why do you want to pew pew vs ships that were specifically enginered for that one particular task(killing sansha rats, not other players)?
Thats kinda risk averse.




I want to steal all their expensive mods that they fitted and put them in a station hanger never to be seen again.



Alternatively, and far more drastically, remove CONCORD from HS Incursion systems.
This harms non-Incursion players there, but tbh they cant earn squat there anyways whilst the Incursion is present, and should gtfo by all means necessary asap.

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Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#367 - 2017-03-22 16:15:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:



Alternatively, and far more drastically, remove CONCORD from HS Incursion systems.
This harms non-Incursion players there, but tbh they cant earn squat there anyways whilst the Incursion is present, and should gtfo by all means necessary asap.



That's not a bad idea so long as you have the modal window gate warning like when you enter low sec for the first time. Or maybe a temporary reduction is security level that slowly recovers as parts of the incursion are completed. Not sure what implications that would have for things like player structures in the system.
Salvos Rhoska
#368 - 2017-03-22 16:50:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Agent 5B wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:



Alternatively, and far more drastically, remove CONCORD from HS Incursion systems.
This harms non-Incursion players there, but tbh they cant earn squat there anyways whilst the Incursion is present, and should gtfo by all means necessary asap.



That's not a bad idea so long as you have the modal window gate warning like when you enter low sec for the first time. Or maybe a temporary reduction is security level that slowly recovers as parts of the incursion are completed. Not sure what implications that would have for things like player structures in the system.


Incursions already cause huge penalties to non-Incursion runners.
Just so some bling ships can run enormously lucrative content, everyone that lives their otherwise gets kicked in the balls.

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Rena Skjem
Oramara Trade Guild
#369 - 2017-03-22 17:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rena Skjem
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task.

The fits were designed to last long enough to catch reps + as much dps as you can get.
So yeah.. they were engineered.

HS incursions are that high because they run by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time.
Even then its 150 m/hour on average. They are "really" high when there is 60bil on grid running TCRC non stop.

Also incursions are group activity and why group activity should be less rewarding that solo activity?
Salvos Rhoska
#370 - 2017-03-22 20:00:48 UTC
Rena Skjem wrote:
HS incursions are that high because they run .by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time.
Even then its 150 m/hour on average


And your risk, is what?

You are just printing isk, day after day, in the safest sector of EVE.

To make matters worse, you earn that, whilst the HS Locals get crippling penalties on their own income/efficiency due to system effects.

Bullshit.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#371 - 2017-03-22 20:06:33 UTC
Rena Skjem wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task.

The fits were designed to last long enough to catch reps + as much dps as you can get.
So yeah.. they were engineered.

HS incursions are that high because they run by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time.
Even then its 150 m/hour on average. They are "really" high when there is 60bil on grid running TCRC non stop.

Also incursions are group activity and why group activity should be less rewarding that solo activity?


Please at least be fair. Incursion fits are the probably the PvE fit the closest to an actaul PvP fit since you can't tank specific damage type. The fits are pretty glass cannon but they sure make more sense PvP wise than a mission fit with gaping resist holes...

You also happen to have a somewhat decent fleet setup with logi, boost and likely web support.
Salvos Rhoska
#372 - 2017-03-22 20:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rena Skjem wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task.

The fits were designed to last long enough to catch reps + as much dps as you can get.
So yeah.. they were engineered.

HS incursions are that high because they run by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time.
Even then its 150 m/hour on average. They are "really" high when there is 60bil on grid running TCRC non stop.

Also incursions are group activity and why group activity should be less rewarding that solo activity?


Please at least be fair. Incursion fits are the probably the PvE fit the closest to an actaul PvP fit since you can't tank specific damage type. The fits are pretty glass cannon but they sure make more sense PvP wise than a mission fit with gaping resist holes...

You also happen to have a somewhat decent fleet setup with logi, boost and likely web support.


I see I hit another nerve.

GJ on a failed attempt to sideline the issue of HS Incursion profits and safety.

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Ludwig van Baithoven
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#373 - 2017-03-22 22:27:04 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rena Skjem wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task.

The fits were designed to last long enough to catch reps + as much dps as you can get.
So yeah.. they were engineered.

HS incursions are that high because they run by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time.
Even then its 150 m/hour on average. They are "really" high when there is 60bil on grid running TCRC non stop.

Also incursions are group activity and why group activity should be less rewarding that solo activity?


Please at least be fair. Incursion fits are the probably the PvE fit the closest to an actaul PvP fit since you can't tank specific damage type. The fits are pretty glass cannon but they sure make more sense PvP wise than a mission fit with gaping resist holes...

You also happen to have a somewhat decent fleet setup with logi, boost and likely web support.


I see I hit another nerve.

GJ on a failed attempt to sideline the issue of HS Incursion profits and safety.



Null-sec is a lot safer than High-sec and they print a lot more ISK in safety there than incursion runners do.
Rena Skjem
Oramara Trade Guild
#374 - 2017-03-23 06:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rena Skjem
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

And your risk, is what?


2bil on grid is not risk? Logi getting suicide ganked resulting in a couple of deaths is not a risk? wardecs is not a risk?
If that is not risking that i dont know what is.

Define "RISK" please.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
Please at least be fair.


1 omni resist != pvp fit.
2 There is no way to make sure that enemies stay on grid and not warp out the moment something goes wrong.

Frostys Virpio wrote:

You also happen to have a somewhat decent fleet setup with logi, boost and likely web support

The moment war targets on grid you have no fleet support. (spoiler: concord protects everyone, not just incursion runners)
So the only one who can help is logi. and logi will go suspect and wardecs go for them(spoiler they dont have a lot of ehp and their main tank is speed and low signature).
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#375 - 2017-03-23 07:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Sykes Makar wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
If it cant be done by PvP, then some other means are necessary to address HS.
Some may disagree, but I find the Jita monstrosity unhealthy for the game.

Some will argue its a result of player choice.
In my view, that is only a symptom of failing underlying mechanics which make such an abomination possible.


I believe HS should further be less attractive to be in, rather than enforcing the PvP element onto those who would like to remain in high-sec despite this.


Reducing HS Incursion income and Ice belts would be a good start.


Why?

Eve is experiencing deflation...why would you reduce money creation in this case. Who are you angling to be? Eugene Meyer?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

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Salvos Rhoska
#376 - 2017-03-23 11:55:47 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Sykes Makar wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
If it cant be done by PvP, then some other means are necessary to address HS.
Some may disagree, but I find the Jita monstrosity unhealthy for the game.

Some will argue its a result of player choice.
In my view, that is only a symptom of failing underlying mechanics which make such an abomination possible.


I believe HS should further be less attractive to be in, rather than enforcing the PvP element onto those who would like to remain in high-sec despite this.


Reducing HS Incursion income and Ice belts would be a good start.


Why?

Eve is experiencing deflation...why would reduce money creation in this case.?


Oh cmon, man.
Thats like arguing HS Incursion income should be increased to combat deflation.

The point is these two activities are too lucrative in HS under CONCORD.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#377 - 2017-03-23 16:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Sykes Makar wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
If it cant be done by PvP, then some other means are necessary to address HS.
Some may disagree, but I find the Jita monstrosity unhealthy for the game.

Some will argue its a result of player choice.
In my view, that is only a symptom of failing underlying mechanics which make such an abomination possible.


I believe HS should further be less attractive to be in, rather than enforcing the PvP element onto those who would like to remain in high-sec despite this.


Reducing HS Incursion income and Ice belts would be a good start.


Why?

Eve is experiencing deflation...why would reduce money creation in this case.?


Oh cmon, man.
Thats like arguing HS Incursion income should be increased to combat deflation.

The point is these two activities are too lucrative in HS under CONCORD.


That would be one way to do it. But right now the money supply is shrinking and prices are decreasing. Removing these things alone would accelerate that process, and large levels of deflation are bad. If deflation implies a small positive rate of return on holding cash, that is probably okay, just as small levels of inflation are okay. But when it gets large enough, say you are earning 10% by holding cash or more, then it is a very bad thing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#378 - 2017-03-24 05:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Or prices where inflated, and are now naturalizing.

In anycase, income from PvE is related to other issues than the value of isk.

HS Incursion income is too high for the HS Concord environment and HS icebelts are too bountiful/frequent in the same.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#379 - 2017-03-24 06:03:02 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Or prices where inflated, and are now naturalizing.


That is still deflation. The idea of a natural price, by the way, is bullshit.

Quote:
In anycase, income from PvE is related to other issues than the value of isk.

HS Incursion income is too high for the HS Concord environment and HS icebelts are too bountiful/frequent in the same.


Fine, but if you are going to remove that source of ISK creation in the face of deflation find some other source of ISK to buff to make up for it. Simply removing it would be, IMO, a mistake. I doubt that will sway you, but deflation is bad. Exhibit 1: The Great Depression.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#380 - 2017-03-24 06:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Or prices where inflated, and are now naturalizing.


That is still deflation. The idea of a natural price, by the way, is bullshit.

Quote:
In anycase, income from PvE is related to other issues than the value of isk.

HS Incursion income is too high for the HS Concord environment and HS icebelts are too bountiful/frequent in the same.


Fine, but if you are going to remove that source of ISK creation in the face of deflation find some other source of ISK to buff to make up for it. Simply removing it would be, IMO, a mistake. I doubt that will sway you, but deflation is bad. Exhibit 1: The Great Depression.


1) Yes, its deflation. And you know what I meant by "naturalizing" in a colloquial sense.
Im not an economist.

2) Sure. For example HS Drone Sigs could use a bounty increase, as they otherwise lack significant drops or materials of any substantial value to the market (alloys). Removing the bounty and other penalties on the Incursion systems would also generate more isk rather than kicking the locals in the balls.

3) I wasnt advocating for removal of Hs Incursions, just reducing the income.
Reducing yield/frequency of HS icebelts would not cause deflation.

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