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Dev blog: The Advancing World of Upwell Structures

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CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2017-03-22 14:59:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
We are working on improving existing Upwell Structures (Citadels, Engineering Complexes) and also on new Upwell Structures.

We would like to give you a high level overview of where we currently are with those structures and where we want to go. We also would like to get your feedback and encourage you to fill out this survey.

But first, check the latest dev blog and learn more about The Advancing World of Upwell Structures.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2 - 2017-03-22 15:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
We hope that many of you will find the time to complete this survey and help give us your feedback on what you want to see next from Upwell Structures. And big thanks to the CSM for their participation in this process as well.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-03-22 15:26:47 UTC
This isn't directly related to Upwell structures, but all stations.

1. Decouple the ability to recover a secure container's PW from the "Security Officer" role. This is a game breaking ability and defeats the use of containers in stations/upwells.
2. Allow secure containers to be used for the output of manufacturing jobs (where the item is locked upon being deposited into the container. There is currently no way to secure the output of a manufacturing job except dedicating a hangar per person which doesn't scale.
3. Ensure that all types of containers, station warehouse, vault, container can be used for #2.
4. Allow for fully fit ships to be placed in station containers/vaults/warehouse.
5. Please fix the BPO lock down mechanic. Locking down a blueprint collection or unlocking it can literally kill somebody with the amount of time and clicks required. A person should be able to highlight all the BPOs in a hangar and create a single vote to lock/unlock all of them with a single action.


.
Drabbin Mishi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2017-03-22 15:38:42 UTC
When will we be able to destroy our clone from the clone-bay window in an Upwell structure, just like we have always been able to do in a Station/Outpost?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#5 - 2017-03-22 15:39:18 UTC
Interesting devblog. I think the approach to take a breather and finish implementing the basic features (and squashing the worst bugs/problems) is a good one and I thank you for the insight into their usage. But I still have two questions:

1) Any thoughts of doing a balance pass on their offensive/defensive capabilities of the Upwell structures yet? You gave us numbers on how they are being used, but not so much on how they are being destroyed. There are some concerns that the current vulnerability windows and reinforcement timers make them too tedious to attack while others are concerned their defensive systems aren't sufficient in some situations. I was wondering if you had enough stats yet to revisit these or if it is even on the agenda to do so yet?

2) More long term, do you still intend to implement additional Upwell structures? The original devblog proposed about 8 different structures, and while a couple seem to have been combined, we still have only heard about 3. Are additional structures like the Observatory Arrays, Advertisement Centers or Star Gates still on the road map?

Keep up the good work and I look forward to hearing more at Fanfest.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2017-03-22 16:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Grookshank
You introduced a very powerful function to upwell structures with Clone Swapping in citadels.

I am perfectly fine that we can't build structures in Thera as it is a shattered WH system.

Is there any chance we can get clone swapping to the NPC stations we have? We are the only region of space that is left out on this feature.
Cristl
#7 - 2017-03-22 16:49:30 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
This isn't directly related to Upwell structures, but all stations.

1. Decouple the ability to recover a secure container's PW from the "Security Officer" role. This is a game breaking ability and defeats the use of containers in stations/upwells.
2. Allow secure containers to be used for the output of manufacturing jobs (where the item is locked upon being deposited into the container. There is currently no way to secure the output of a manufacturing job except dedicating a hangar per person which doesn't scale.
3. Ensure that all types of containers, station warehouse, vault, container can be used for #2.
4. Allow for fully fit ships to be placed in station containers/vaults/warehouse.
5. Please fix the BPO lock down mechanic. Locking down a blueprint collection or unlocking it can literally kill somebody with the amount of time and clicks required. A person should be able to highlight all the BPOs in a hangar and create a single vote to lock/unlock all of them with a single action.
Private, are you suggesting that the corp interface / roles / hangars situation is sub-optimal? That's grounds for court martial!

But yeah, +1
Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
Seventh Sanctum.
#8 - 2017-03-22 16:50:35 UTC
Why you touch another thing to screw someones gameplay?
This changes are stupid - especially the one with "chunking" a moon and bring miners to collect whatever to collect from
That belt;

What is the reason for that changes except "we want to everything around takes longer - and wamt you to easier lose your stuff so u wont be able to buy a plex via isk"
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#9 - 2017-03-22 16:53:40 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

1) Any thoughts of doing a balance pass on their offensive/defensive capabilities of the Upwell structures yet? You gave us numbers on how they are being used, but not so much on how they are being destroyed. There are some concerns that the current vulnerability windows and reinforcement timers make them too tedious to attack while others are concerned their defensive systems aren't sufficient in some situations. I was wondering if you had enough stats yet to revisit these or if it is even on the agenda to do so yet?


This mostly, from fighting citadels the following points stick out, they are probably a little too powerfull against capitals (allthough i am not sure how they are against supers), a little too weak against sub capitals, but the bomb launcher is probably too strong, especially the neuting bombs.
Obidiah Kane
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#10 - 2017-03-22 17:32:41 UTC
Liking a lot of this, top work again - the moon mining looks interesting...that said...

We really need some action in losec (I know its being seen to as it's own project, but in relation to structures) as FW has been totally broken by citadels - the chance to dock and hide has removed a great deal of the tension associated with FW, and that has had a knock on effect on folks like me (not FW but denizens of that part of space) .

In general, the hassle it takes to have any effect whatsoever on a citadel is completely out of balance with how powerful they are for their owners - they are fundamentally risk free stepping stones at the moment. Once anchored they are more of an insidious influence on New Eden then the pre-nerf jump ranges - they not only allow the larger entities to project force (fort full of caps and jump clones), but also establish it.; its like we took a step forward for two steps back.

The ability to deliver without docking would only make this worse...where is the risk going?!! Please do not implement this!

Finally, from a nerd perspective - the ability to decorate, to skin, to personalise our structures should also be pretty high on the list too - the dull generic interior is tired already and is completely immersion breaking, not to mention it murders gfx cards (seriously, can that be fixed asap? My 980 is making alarming fan noises when I'm docked...if you are happy being invoiced for my new hardware, please continue, but it is a bit rubbish).

All in all, after a year, with all the hype for release - they have turned out to be pretty 'meh'...they have so much potential though, looking forward to seeing where they go :)
Garphos Trectes
Vision Inc
Hole Control
#11 - 2017-03-22 17:35:16 UTC
Quote:
enabling remote trashing of items in structures


WHY? So even less looting in wormhole space. Can u please unable trashing in WH Space?

BTW what happens with assets of a deleted character? Are they still existing and can drop by destroying a structure in wspace?
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#12 - 2017-03-22 17:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: AFK Hauler
For the love of God and all the is holy -

PLEASE

Stop introducing more structures that require rigs using raw materials that are already too scares on the market to support!

Reduce the number of raw materials on rigs for these structures, there is no balance.


ALSO-

It's obvious that CCP - you - designed the Upwell structures to need rigs for max efficiency. In thinking that you wanted to provide "profitable" content to salvage players, you made the rigs require a "stupid" amount of raw materials. This thinking would lead to more salvage content to balance the market because of demand - profit follows the player. However, that has not happened and your flawed thinking has resulted in a severe deficit in raw materials.
This proposed change follows the exact same flawed thinking - people who do not mine for content will not change their play style just because it becomes more profitable.

This one change (moon mining) can/may/might collapse the game market and lose players from being priced out of play style. It's not like there is an army of salvagers all of a sudden? Why would there be an army of miners to mine rocks and not tears?
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#13 - 2017-03-22 18:47:08 UTC
AFK Hauler wrote:
For the love of God and all the is holy -

PLEASE

Stop introducing more structures that require rigs using raw materials that are already too scares on the market to support!

Reduce the number of raw materials on rigs for these structures, there is no balance.


ALSO-

It's obvious that CCP - you - designed the Upwell structures to need rigs for max efficiency. In thinking that you wanted to provide "profitable" content to salvage players, you made the rigs require a "stupid" amount of raw materials. This thinking would lead to more salvage content to balance the market because of demand - profit follows the player. However, that has not happened and your flawed thinking has resulted in a severe deficit in raw materials.
This proposed change follows the exact same flawed thinking - people who do not mine for content will not change their play style just because it becomes more profitable.

This one change (moon mining) can/may/might collapse the game market and lose players from being priced out of play style. It's not like there is an army of salvagers all of a sudden? Why would there be an army of miners to mine rocks and not tears?

what? salvage prices are in the dumpster.

and players absolutely change their play styles to the more profitable activity. seems like there has been an explosion in rorqual pilots recently.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Myxx
The Scope
#14 - 2017-03-22 19:10:09 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
This isn't directly related to Upwell structures, but all stations.


5. Please fix the BPO lock down mechanic. Locking down a blueprint collection or unlocking it can literally kill somebody with the amount of time and clicks required. A person should be able to highlight all the BPOs in a hangar and create a single vote to lock/unlock all of them with a single action.



an alt of mine recently had to lock down 230+ bpos. Never again until it gets fixed.
Fredrick Arwood
Definitely Not Outer Rim Minerals
#15 - 2017-03-22 19:16:30 UTC
A suggesting for a service of the new refineries is as a Planetary Interaction (PI) processing facility. With the limited power available in PI performing P3 and P4 processing on a planet that is doing extraction is near impossible. Refineries could do all or just the higher two types, and charge a fee. I would suggest that Command Center V be the required skill to use them, or a new skill similar to Industry. Of course, it would be nice if those with Command Center V could be "grandfathered" into the new skill. This would create more revenue for the structure owner, increase manufacturing and make the higher end products available.

Keep up the good work, I will keep up the subscriptions.

Trade Fair, Mine Well, Fly Sale.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2017-03-22 19:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
> The results of this shift are already visible in the YC119.2 release released a few weeks ago, and in the YC119.3 patch just released.

So those failpatches are indeed CSM fault?

> "go vote in the CSM election”

Is there a way to vote against CSM itself?
If boycott is my only option to voice this opinion, boycott it will be.
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#17 - 2017-03-22 21:00:08 UTC
I feel like the survey was just a 'lets find a way to make sure we can pat ourselves on the back with the results' type of survey. It asked almost NONE of the questions i was expecting, and lots of questions that didn't really seem to matter since apparently you already know what you are doing with those parts.

Upwell structures in HS are near impossible for a small corp to defend against anyone bigger than they are. As the defenses suck for HS since the missiles do diddly squat to anything sub-cap, and the only weapons that can do any decent dmg are the ones you can only use in low/null.

I still can't seem to find the profit in doing industry in them either, or at all since all the industry nerfs over the past few years, that were justified under the guise that the added costs would just get shifted to the 'customers'...lol

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.
Sha'Uri Dark
VoidRunner's Inc.
#18 - 2017-03-22 21:41:45 UTC
Took the survey and didn't see a place for general comments a few things I would love to have:

The ability to rent offices at the character level and grant access/usage rights through an ACL
So I can consolidate assets across characters in 1 place instead of across 12 different inventories

My Captains Quarters
I like to stretch my legs every now and again, but I have a feeling these assets/tech were sold off with WoD IP

Alliance level book marks
Not a part of Upwell Structures none the less can we get an eta on them; they've been soon™ since Novemberish if not longer
zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
#19 - 2017-03-22 23:11:25 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

2) More long term, do you still intend to implement additional Upwell structures? The original devblog proposed about 8 different structures, and while a couple seem to have been combined, we still have only heard about 3. Are additional structures like the Observatory Arrays, Advertisement Centers or Star Gates still on the road map?


+1 for Player Owned Star Gates in Null, Low and High Security.

I really liked this idea very much, when it was first announced as it would free up time we use to transport things while it could be taxed to make sure it doesn't ruin hauling as a profession (also should probably be crazy expensive both in build cost and in maintenance). On the other hand I see some serious trouble in PVP if the locals are not only used to the area, have backup, intel and ressources everywhere, but on top of that are able to play the rabbit and hedgehog game, basically outrunning everyone. (Just a vague idea, but maybe introduce some exhaustion timer, which won't allow you to use agressive modules after jumping a player owned stargate)
Nelly Uanos
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#20 - 2017-03-22 23:22:39 UTC
No comment section in the survey so here it is...

Market function are still not up to station level.

- Can't setup buy order remotly in a Citadel when you are in space, the drop down menu only list Station.

- Can't sell item from your asset windows in they are in a Citadel / Can't sell item in a Citadel if you are not IN that specific Citadel.
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