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Can we get rid of CSM after the recent PLEX insider trading fiasco?

First post
Author
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#201 - 2017-03-21 15:16:52 UTC
CCP cant ever do things right because


"programming is too hard" now out of all excuses once you hear a game company say this.. why in the hell should someone invest in it.


you are ruined ccp, totally ruined,
Veine Miromme
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2017-03-21 15:49:54 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
CCP cant ever do things right because


"programming is too hard" now out of all excuses once you hear a game company say this.. why in the hell should someone invest in it.


you are ruined ccp, totally ruined,

Where does it say that,
that CCP said "programming is too hard" ?

Aside from you saying that they said that above, which is obvious.

Did they mean it's too hard for others? Since they obviously do programming.
Besides, when people like a program, there is no code that makes them like it.
They decide for themselves. and no-one can program them to do that.

If I do program for 20 years, and God knows I do, and no judge or not enough judge, or the people, want to protect my work in time, that is the people's decision.
Why shouldn't I integrate it , take it into account, fear mongering is not exactly legal either.
Hiding it certainly is not going to help.


Additionally , why not start a new thread about this (the ruined, selling, trying to sell the cie)
since this is supposed to be a thread about getting rid of the CSM and a recent PLEX insider trading fiasco?
??

Ship Type : Out of pod (for now)

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#203 - 2017-03-21 16:11:05 UTC
Veine Miromme wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
CCP cant ever do things right because


"programming is too hard" now out of all excuses once you hear a game company say this.. why in the hell should someone invest in it.


you are ruined ccp, totally ruined,

Where does it say that,
that CCP said "programming is too hard" ?

Aside from you saying that they said that above, which is obvious.

Did they mean it's too hard for others? Since they obviously do programming.
Besides, when people like a program, there is no code that makes them like it.
They decide for themselves. and no-one can program them to do that.

If I do program for 20 years, and God knows I do, and no judge or not enough judge, or the people, want to protect my work in time, that is the people's decision.
Why shouldn't I integrate it , take it into account, fear mongering is not exactly legal either.
Hiding it certainly is not going to help.


Additionally , why not start a new thread about this (the ruined, selling, trying to sell the cie)
since this is supposed to be a thread about getting rid of the CSM and a recent PLEX insider trading fiasco?
??



they said that when it came to walking in stations, dust, and a host of other things. fail, fail, and more fail is ccp's legacy can only keep the hype going so long before reality sets in and folks who try it , catch onto the cash grab attempt.
Veine Miromme
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2017-03-21 16:46:41 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:

they said that when it came to walking in stations, dust, and a host of other things. fail, fail, and more fail is ccp's legacy can only keep the hype going so long before reality sets in and folks who try it , catch onto the cash grab attempt.

I think it's more a matter of the hardware running the program than the actual programming.

However,
1.
They would have to resell the programming that isn't used, which is much easier said than done since most paid programming is only done on written contracts with specific offers to pay before the start of the coding or even the analysis phase of the program.

2.
It does take more engineering or analysis to design programs that take into account lower hardware requirements.
Most newer program just rely on newer hardware and make it impossible to work on lower-end systems.


3.
How do you suggest to pay ?
It seems the hype may be more to be hyped against it than for it.

If hype is reality than how do you describe reality which is made not to be out of hype to cover the hype behind it?


4.
They do have legacy code.
They care for it themselves at least in part, however, I know very little of their corporate structure and system.
The only info that I know is not applied to the actual corporate players / participants.
The only names that I have from the published into are not people I do contract with except as client.
All the design I did was for my own use and no other companies ever paid me for it.

As soon as I even got an offer for a house or another offer for security,
I was met with charges seeking seizure and forfeiture.
Hardly the kind of condition good for my family in any generations.
I might as well move to a country offering volunteer work or register in a slave labour program.

Ship Type : Out of pod (for now)

Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#205 - 2017-03-22 00:46:08 UTC
OK, it is a slow day and I feel the need to post some observations about CCP and Eve. I do this as a long time player, a three time CSM member and the head of a dormant alliance with a catchy name! I also am a life time software engineer with some graphics cred. So here goes.

1. Eve began as a horrible piece of code to implement a pretty lame game.

2. Eve grew to be a much larger piece of horrible code but a game based on some interesting ideas. (don't get me wrong, there is some solid engineering in Eve these days!)

3. CCP has made efforts to make it less horrible code and as a result there are some things basically turned off or never likely to work correctly.

4. Eve has some continuity gaps in terms of game design and focus. There have been at least three waves of folks that I'm aware of that were the core of CCP when it came to driving Eve.

5. CCP has shown some ADD in terms of other projects. From a dead vampire game, Dust, partly finished walking in stations that leaves us with the captain's cell (highest ever resource utilization ever achieved by a single player - multiplayer game!) or Greed is Good. CCP can be scattered and it has cost it's core product. Eve. Those wasted resources could have been used to make Eve much nicer.

6. At its core Eve is the ultimate sandbox and a true player driven economy. It is this fact that keeps Eve alive but also the thing that will limit the actual size of Eve.

7. CCP clearly continues to struggle to find that thing that will take Eve to that next level whatever that means. So we FTP, microtransactions, Plexes and other experiments to ultimately boost CCP's bottom line.

8. CCP has a horrible history of completing whatever its new shiny is. Walking in stations, dead, moon mining revamp. dead, exploration and tourism as an Eve feature, dead, smuggling as an Eve feature, dead, major story line development based on player actions, dead, truly dynamic player driven actions that change Eve fundamentals like system security, dead, faction warfare, on life support, in game browser, dead twice, true ship personaliztion, dead... the list goes on. Take some time and really take a tour of the "verse" and you find tons of content left to rot. A lot of work went into things that never got developed or used.

9. The CSM was formed during a different time in CCP by folks that sadly are no longer involved. So the function of the CSM has changed. They really have been changed from watch-guards to bad idea faeries. But the presence of the CSM is one of the things that make Eve unique.

The players could change the nature of the CSM if they cared enough, but in the end they don't. In fact the number of Eve pod pilots that care enough to get involved in trying to bring about real changes to Eve fundamentals is small. That fact is sometimes hard to remember when posting a masterpiece of logical argument here in the forums. The few folks that are willing to commit the effort are pretty easy to spot in the game and generally well known.

10. The real way to create something different in Eve lies in some basics of human nature. Influence enough folks to support your ideas and you have a chance to make a change. We have some real examples of folks that have that skill set and SOV maps reflect the results. I've found my personal abilities and commitments probably peak at around 300 pod pilots or so paying some attention to what I'd come up with over longer periods of time and just enough for short periods of time to be elected to the CSM. I am in awe of folks that pull together the big alliances.

11. Finally I don't think Eve could have come from anywhere other than Iceland. CCP REALLY likes the basically enabling psychopaths shoot a stranger in the face element of Eve. It is the inner Viking I think. Unless CCP sees an opportunity to dramatically increase revenues by eliminating that cold lack of morals framework that shapes the verse that will stay baked in. Also remember if they were to become convinced to change the game so fundamentally they would need to do it in a way to not shoot themselves in the foot by alienating the cash flow they get now from folks that like that lack of a moral framework. In many ways it is that Eve lets out the worst of an individual that is core to many folks fondness of the game.


So what does that mean? Well if you want Eve to become another game than Eve is today (for example more single player high se PVE) I don't think you'll ever get it because there are too many people that seem to like it as is. And so far no one has come up with a plan to remove the dark heart and keep the patient alive.

Another observation. Eve is played at all manner of levels. I am playing one now! I am bloviating on the Eve forums. This is an element of Eve that has many fans! Eve gives a person a chance to face an infinite set of challenges based on how much they want to put into it on more levels and in more ways than any game short of real life has offered.

Does Eve have warts. Well, yes it does. Would my perfect Eve be different? Well, yes I'd have walking in stations, the pleasure hubs back, comets, smuggling, aliens, more high sec PVE, a framework to create a true player designed mission and a craft system that let me invent new classes of ships much like T3 but more. Would it be better? I have no idea. Is there enough.challenges in Eve to keep me coming back? Going on 12 years would say it looks like it does.

I'm happy a group of Icelandic Vikings decided to make a space game. Sometimes they do things that make me grumpy but I think that's just how they roll. So for now I choose to keep trying to find that way to do better than some other folks in a way that lets me sleep at night!
Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2017-03-22 04:23:49 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:

lots of great and sensible things


Totally loving the management meta. Eve is worth subscription just to watch it struggle and fail on its own terms. You can't lose betting on CCP to fail. If they fail, you win. If they don't fail, Eve is getting better and so you win as a customer.

This is the secret key to winning Eve. We are basically paying for hope, or the comforting certainty of there being none. Either is a good deal for a few bucks a month.

Anyway, the owners of CCP declared open season on their current leadership by putting the whole shebang on the market. That's what you get, when you tell all that world that your folks are not interesting to you anymore.

That the work your folks do doesn't grab your attention like it used to do.

As customers, we are legitimate stakeholders in this enterprise model, and ought to have a voice about that, beyond simply paying or not paying.

Personally, I like the artwork. I think it has immense IP value, which is not to say that this equity wont get pissed up against a wall, left to die of exposure on the Icelandic Steppe, or otherwise ignored and forgotten by morons.

The lore is also good, or rather it was at one time.

Many parts of the customer service are also good. There are lots of good people working at CCP. The art directors carry the bag for the firm, however. Eve looks great, and always has. It's a big deal. So I think they are the only folks you would consider keeping, or at least, not opening their roles to market competition.You end up keeping heaps of folks when you restructure a bought firm, but you open up most jobs to the market to sort the wheat from the chaff.

In the end, very few folks make up the real intellectual potential and future equity in even a large firm. The folks at CCP who draw the pictures, and the story tellers they like, their intellectual friends who develop lore, those folks and their skill sets, and their temperament, seem to be the gold in CCP. They are why you would buy the rest of the firm.

I think that is borne out by the revenues and subscription model, too. CCP are basically a publishing house of theme art, like a comic book franchise.

As for the code and game mechanics......

Minesweeper and fleet battles defined by their rarity and lag.

It is like watching a desperate warthog get taken down by hyenas on the African plain. So much courage and ambition, so few tusks, so many dogs, so many teeth.

Imagine Eve, with the code done by folks who actually played games. Like, from the current era.

That is what we have to hope for, if and when someone with capital searching for a shelter gets involved.

I have a vision of Eve being a busy place, a place where you can log on and get into a roughly evenly matched small fleet battle within 5 minutes. I have a vision of being able to tell folks that Eve is where you come for space ship combat with lots of folks.

Wouldn't that be great?
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2017-03-22 04:27:34 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:

Wouldn't that be great?


no!Cool
Maybe! Shocked
Yes! Cool
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2017-03-22 04:31:32 UTC
Except that it won't ever play out that way.
Even if the playerbase was 10 times what it is now. All it would mean is even larger fleet battles and even more lag. Because that is what the players have done.
CCP has given us the tools to have large fights and they have given us the tools to have small ones. And especially recently they have been trying to tweek the game in ways that encourages the latter over the former without going so far as completely preventing the massive fleet battles (somehow)
And yet, players still blob, the lag fest battles still happen, and solo and small gang roaming is ever on the decline. Because there is strength in numbers and players know that and don't like to loose.

The decline if small gang pvp and blob warfare is something we have done to ourselves.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2017-03-22 05:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sir BloodArgon Aulmais wrote:
Plex prices go up and down all the time.

Proof? Or are you just spewing garbage.

Check PLEX price history for last 3 days. Disturbing. I don't believe last patch had some much influence.

Today we have devblog about PLEX changes. Price rising would start today not 3 days ago.

It stinks, PLEX is bought with real money and CCP may have real problems with that situation.


What problem would that be? That the item you bought for real money would be worth more in game? That is bad how?

Edit: To be clear: the people losing out on this price increase are not people buying PLEX for RL money. Nor is it people currently holding PLEX. The people who lose out are those who are going to be buying PLEX for ISK after after the price started going up in game.

Seriosuly, learn to think thing through in a rational and based on solid economic theory not some bullshit nonsense.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#210 - 2017-03-22 05:57:33 UTC
Professor Push wrote:
“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

― Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations


Execellent, bringing up Adam Smith, but.....

Who loses on this? People buying PLEX for RL money and selling them for ISK? No.

People who are holding PLEX? No.

People who have lots and lots of ISK and are looking to buy a PLEX to extend their account? Yes.

So you are butthurt over rich, long term players with a large pile of ISK.

Wow....people upset over the mega rich in game. WITF?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#211 - 2017-03-22 06:02:53 UTC
commander aze wrote:
Or... just a thought we elect people with high moral character via elecrions from the popular vote


Hahahahahahaha....

Sure. That will work.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Nate Hill
Rocket No. 9
#212 - 2017-03-22 07:34:07 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Nate Hill wrote:
It does matter. Feedback without highsec PVE is leading EVE to death.
No interesting highsec PVE contents can attract new players now.

Then Highsec dwellers should get off their bloody asses and vote! How hard can it be to outnumber a couple thousand nullsec voters?

Just like independent will never win.
Alliances are like major parties.

It's hard to win for an unorganized community .


At least I voted after I searched HIGH, carebear, industry, mission and PVE. as key words.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2017-03-22 13:06:47 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Except that it won't ever play out that way.
Even if the playerbase was 10 times what it is now. All it would mean is even larger fleet battles and even more lag. Because that is what the players have done.
CCP has given us the tools to have large fights and they have given us the tools to have small ones. And especially recently they have been trying to tweek the game in ways that encourages the latter over the former without going so far as completely preventing the massive fleet battles (somehow)
And yet, players still blob, the lag fest battles still happen, and solo and small gang roaming is ever on the decline. Because there is strength in numbers and players know that and don't like to loose.

The decline if small gang pvp and blob warfare is something we have done to ourselves.


"We" did it to ourself because the game make it more efficient to do so. Losing sting in this game or at least it's supposed to so player, like normal human being, look for way to minimize their losses. Turns out, in a MMO where you can always bring more allies to a single battle, bringing those allies to that fight has become somewhat standard. The loop keep feeding itself until people lose interest.
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
#214 - 2017-03-22 13:54:01 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:

The players could change the nature of the CSM if they cared enough, but in the end they don't. In fact the number of Eve pod pilots that care enough to get involved in trying to bring about real changes to Eve fundamentals is small. That fact is sometimes hard to remember when posting a masterpiece of logical argument here in the forums. The few folks that are willing to commit the effort are pretty easy to spot in the game and generally well known.


Agree with the OP, CSM is useless.

Players could affect change, but why bother when you can simply go play another game.
Joey Bags
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#215 - 2017-03-22 13:55:17 UTC
I see the PLEX price rise more due to carrier ratting and the Rorq being bashed with the latest nerf. If there was any effect of CSM leaking info, to my mind should have driven PLEX prices down, not up, as insider info should have suggested to dump your PLEX instead of buy. You are introducing more PLEX into the game, supply and demand, price should go down.As far as monkeying with people who buy PLEX for real money the get more bang for the buck with PLEX/ISK ratio being higher so why would the complain. My 2 ISK at any rate.

You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friends nose. Unless you podded them...and collected their corpse.

Gleb Koskov
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#216 - 2017-03-22 17:01:32 UTC
I'm currently at 200 aurum, and they are going to take it away? but why not spend a couple of dollars to get it above 1k; problem solved? Cool
Veine Miromme
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2017-03-22 17:16:58 UTC
Gleb Koskov wrote:
I'm currently at 200 aurum, and they are going to take it away? but why not spend a couple of dollars to get it above 1k; problem solved? Cool

You can buy 2 pairs of boots or a shirt for it (at 100 AUR each).
Extractors are around 4,500 AUR for I don't remember how many.

You can also verify if you have AUR on accounts which were activated in the past
but which now are inactive and with Alpha clones only.
(I don't think that was possible before.)

Ship Type : Out of pod (for now)

KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#218 - 2017-03-22 19:45:23 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Professor Push wrote:
“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

― Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations


Execellent, bringing up Adam Smith, but.....

Who loses on this? People buying PLEX for RL money and selling them for ISK? No.

People who are holding PLEX? No.

People who have lots and lots of ISK and are looking to buy a PLEX to extend their account? Yes.

So you are butthurt over rich, long term players with a large pile of ISK.

Wow....people upset over the mega rich in game. WITF?


You missed a very important group. Some might say the KEY group: People selling ISK/PLEX for RL money. aka RMTers.

It's not like that has ever been a problem before, right? And certainly not involving the CSM. Roll

Dum Spiro Spero

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#219 - 2017-03-22 19:50:11 UTC
Gleb Koskov wrote:
I'm currently at 200 aurum, and they are going to take it away? but why not spend a couple of dollars to get it above 1k; problem solved? Cool

it will eventually get back to you in the form of miniplex as per the more recent devblog.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Sitting Bull Lakota
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2017-03-23 10:01:55 UTC
Girka Kring wrote:
Can we get rid of CSM? Their only role is to leak info for big entities/their friends. Casual players don't care and don't even vote for CSM. Players in big alliances are forced to vote for specific candidates. Overall CSM is giving advantage to 1% of player base, at the expense of reminding 99%.
Now this is funny.
Even assuming you are exactly right and the CSM membership was guilty of insider trading, you must at least admit that this is essentially monopoly money they're playing, right? The price of PLEX spikes: people who purchase it from CCP or vendor get more bang for their buck. Some player reps make a killing off of specualtion in a video game. Huge scandal.
Give me a break.

I don't know how you lasted this long with your "We are the 99%" nonsense. This game is basically 1880's capitalism, and some of us like it that way.

As for your solution of asking CCP for permanent bans on the offenders, what happened to doing things the Guiding Hand Social Club way?
You know who they are; go make it happen.