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PLEX change : Cancel PLEX orders and reimburse broker fees?! Really?
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IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#21 - 2017-03-20 16:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: IChooseYou
If CCP can't just convert existing orders and multiply them by 500, one solution could be that, when they cancel all orders, they they immediately and automatically relist them at 1/500th of the price.

CCP would have to apply the tax rate that was in force at the time of the initial order. Both sales and brokers rates at the relevant time should apply since corp and faction standings could have changed too.

Buying all pilots at the best prices out there!
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#22 - 2017-03-20 16:31:04 UTC
IChooseYou wrote:
If CCP can't just convert existing orders and multiply them by 500, one solution could be that, when they cancel all orders, they they immediately and automatically relist them at 1/500th of the price.

CCP would have to apply the tax rate that was in force at the time of the initial order (both sales and brokers rates at the relevant time should apply since corp and faction standings could have changed too).



The reason they're cancelling orders is because PLEX will be volatile, old AUR stocks will be converted to PLEX, people will panic, and frankly it's what they should do every time they make a big change.

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Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#23 - 2017-03-20 16:32:49 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
While of course you are right (someone will scream about any change whatsoever), I think CCP should favour making people whose complaint makes no sense be the ones who do the screaming.

Provided the minimum quantity is set to 500, the conversion of an order for PLEX into 500x as many microPLEX makes no actual difference whatsoever, so if someone complains, they're being silly.


I'll concede that conversion would be the least disruptive, but I see this as an effort to create some level of consistency regarding how they handle major changes to items. PLEX is the only outlier in which conversion is even a possibility. I simply don't think CCP gave it a lot of thought because it's not WORTH a lot of thought. They can convert it, take the fees from station owners or print the money - it's not going to be a big impact regardless of what they do. I'm simply making the point that people declaring that the sky is falling (as they always do over anything and everything) are being ridiculous.
IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#24 - 2017-03-20 16:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: IChooseYou
Elizabeth Norn wrote:

The reason they're cancelling orders is because PLEX will be volatile, old AUR stocks will be converted to PLEX, people will panic, and frankly it's what they should do every time they make a big change.


A lot of market items can become volatile for a number of different reasons. In my opinion, this doesn't justify screwing over either the trader or market owner. If people are worried about volatility, they should monitor and/or cancel their own orders before hand.

Buying all pilots at the best prices out there!
IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#25 - 2017-03-20 16:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: IChooseYou
Zarek Kree wrote:
Areen Sassel wrote:
While of course you are right (someone will scream about any change whatsoever), I think CCP should favour making people whose complaint makes no sense be the ones who do the screaming.

Provided the minimum quantity is set to 500, the conversion of an order for PLEX into 500x as many microPLEX makes no actual difference whatsoever, so if someone complains, they're being silly.


I'll concede that conversion would be the least disruptive, but I see this as an effort to create some level of consistency regarding how they handle major changes to items. PLEX is the only outlier in which conversion is even a possibility. I simply don't think CCP gave it a lot of thought because it's not WORTH a lot of thought. They can convert it, take the fees from station owners or print the money - it's not going to be a big impact regardless of what they do. I'm simply making the point that people declaring that the sky is falling (as they always do over anything and everything) are being ridiculous.


You are right in that I don't really care about losing 15b (not that this number is accurate in any event). But it is just the principle that if you are going to do something, do it right.

Also, I think you are wrong to say that plex is the only item in which this could occur. I seem to recall there being something to this effect with RAM. The multiplier in that case was 100 or something. Some people abused it to get rid of their bounties and got temporary bans.

Buying all pilots at the best prices out there!
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#26 - 2017-03-20 16:49:03 UTC
IChooseYou wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:

The reason they're cancelling orders is because PLEX will be volatile, old AUR stocks will be converted to PLEX, people will panic, and frankly it's what they should do every time they make a big change.


A lot of market items can become volatile for a number of different reasons. In my opinion, this doesn't justify screwing over either the trader or market owner. If people are worried about volatility, they should monitor and/or cancel their own orders before hand.


This is a bigger change than most, even fighters had their orders cancelled. Remember, they're also retiring the 30 Day Pilot's License Extension (PLEX) item and introducing a new one, this way the old history is preserved. I imagine converting one item into another, and its market orders while changing their price introduces more points of failure that they really don't want to have to test for.

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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#27 - 2017-03-20 16:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
Zarek Kree wrote:
[...] PLEX is the only outlier in which conversion is even a possibility. [...]


RAM, fighters, and I believe compressed ores, had their quantities messed with.

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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2017-03-20 18:18:31 UTC
I think the best solution would be to do two things:

1) cancel all orders, no refund
2) set broker fees for (new)PLEX everywhere to 0 for a couple of days to allow relisting.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#29 - 2017-03-20 21:08:46 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
This could easily result in corp wallets winding up in the negative twelve figures.



12 figures? you mean 100B+ in broker fees? That's utterly ridiculous. According to EVE Market Data, there's currently about 1.3T (trillion) in PLEX buy orders on the entire EVE market and another 0.7T in sell orders. That's a grand total of a little over 2T in PLEX orders on the market. Even if you assume that half of those are at player controlled stations (though it's less) and then also generously assume a 1.5% broker fee (though it's usually less), that's a maximum of 15B in broker fees that have been paid to players.

Considering I could pay that by myself (and I'm certainly nothing special in regard to my EVE finances), it's hard to weep for such a potential loss being absorbed by the entirety of the rich player base selling PLEX. And that's assuming that CCP takes it from the station owners- they may very well simply print the money because 15B isn't going to destabilize the market in the least.



There are over 6000 buy orders for PLEX up now. This will increase in the leadup to the shakeup - look how many orders went up in the PLEX wall.

The losses will hit corps that host trade Fortizars, unless CCP actually duplicate the ISK, which is not standard practice for reimbursing things in EVE. Even when a game bug results in a ship loss CCP's standard policy is to reimburse the hull and then only those modules and cargo that did not drop.

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Professor JinMine
Project Fruit House
#30 - 2017-03-21 03:11:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor JinMine
As you can see, We have roughly 20T in buy orders and 8T sell orders in 389 public citadels in New Eden (20 MAR)
For example, IChooseYou with his his Perimeter Fortizar, hosts 8.5T buy orders, 2T of which is PLEX orders.
Let's assume 0.1% broker fee for the sake of discussion: that's 2B hit to his wallet from the canceled PLEX buy orders alone if CCP decides to reimburse broker fees with citadel owners' ISK.
I'm sure IChooseYou could easily tank this hit, but it's the matter of principle. Why should he cough up his ISK for CCP's action on someone else's orders?
Gaius Clabbacus
Control Alt Delve
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2017-03-21 19:48:27 UTC
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/plex-rework-follow-up/

Looks like CCPs current plan on broker fees is the very sensible HTFU.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#32 - 2017-03-22 00:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Toobo
edit: misread some posts :p

yeah CCP can't reimburse fees out of citadel owners' pocket. That'd be stupid and just won't work. CCP admitted as much. Hooray.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
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