These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Low-sec Hopes and Changes
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#341 - 2017-03-20 14:41:26 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Fk off to NS where you belong.


youre getting a bit disrespectful towards people, stay in highsec buttercup clearly lowsec is too intense for you

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Salvos Rhoska
#342 - 2017-03-20 14:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lan Wang wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Fk off to NS where you belong.


youre getting a bit disrespectful towards people, stay in highsec buttercup clearly lowsec is too intense for you


How much are you being paid to shill?
They should fire you, Mr. Meat-Puppet.
You are terrible and lazy at your job.

A one-liner? Seriously?
Pretending offense? Seriously?
Thats it?

GJ failing to address my post.
Let me re-post if for you.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Good job.

You agreed LS will do fine without cynos/caps, and then gave an example of how an LS mega-coalition forced you to displace with CAPS (which almost certainly had NS based reinforcement and interests).

You singlehandedly obliterated your own position that cynos and caps should not be removed from LS.

Do you not comprehend, that as long as cynos/caps are allowed in LS, it means LS is permeable by NS?
Its not LS entities you are dealing with, its with NS fronts.

LS doesnt need cynos/caps as the peak of the power pyramid.
NS will beat you in that everytime.

If cynos/caps are removed from LS, not only will NS not be able to field/drop its cap fleets there either directly or via fronts, but it means LS will become a sub-cap region with mechanics suitable for a non-NS empire region.

There is no sense in cynos/caps in LS.
LS doesnt need them for PvE content.
LS doesnt need them for gatecamping.
LS doesnt need them for PvP.

Cynos and caps belong in NS, in unrestricted space.
Cynos are for bypassing gatecamps (bad for LS)
Cynos are for dropping overwhelming force (really bad for LS as a NS neighbor)
Cynos are for bypassing bubbles (REALLY bad for LS, as they have no bubbles to begin with).

Consider the following:
-Fleet X from NS, cynoing into LS with caps, has no fear of smartbombs or bubbles.
-Fleet Y from LS, cynoing into NS with caps, have to deal with smartbombs and bubbles.
Add to that the weight of organisation, power and wealth of NS vs LS
Add to that the permeation of LS by NS fronts.

Its ludicrous.

NS has used these mechanics to make LS its little b***h.

Cynos/caps should operate in NS, where there are no restrictions on engagement, and those rules are equal.

Therafter LS will be a non-cyno/subcap fleet sector, conducive to controlling its own gates, its own PvP, sufficient to clearing its own content, and WITHOUT brute force cap influence from NS (same as from HS.).

There is no rational reason for cynos/caps in LS.
NS is where they belong, either in Player or NPC Null.

Cynos/caps gtfo of LS.

There are 817 LS systems.
There are 3524 NS systems.

You dont need LS, and LS doesnt need you.
Fk off to NS where you belong.


Post-change, you can simply move to NS.
Its not a problem. LS will do fine without you.

There are 817 LS systems.
There are 3524 NS systems.

The 817 LS systems dont need or want you.
Go cyno/cap in the 3524 NS systems.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#343 - 2017-03-20 15:22:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
stuff


Ok ill address this for you.

You agreed LS will do fine without cynos/caps, and then gave an example of how an LS mega-coalition forced you to displace with CAPS (which almost certainly had NS based reinforcement and interests).

what NS interests do you "think" we have? i forget...(clearly you underestimate capital forces in lowsec)

Do you not comprehend, that as long as cynos/caps are allowed in LS, it means LS is permeable by NS?
Its not LS entities you are dealing with, its with NS fronts.

Again explain what you think you know because this just sounds stupid...

LS doesnt need cynos/caps as the peak of the power pyramid.
NS will beat you in that everytime.

But we have them and removing them is bad as the thousands of cap pilots will either unsub or move to nullsec and join another big (*insert chosen supercap blob blob here).

There is no sense in cynos/caps in LS.
LS doesnt need them for PvE content.
LS doesnt need them for gatecamping.
LS doesnt need them for PvP.

but nothing in nullsec requires a cap so again whats your point?

Consider this:
Gatecamps with scouts on every gate, how do you engage that gatecamp with out them running?....neutral cyno

If cynos/caps are removed from LS, not only will NS not be able to field/drop its cap fleets there either directly or via fronts, but it means LS will become a sub-cap region with mechanics suitable for a non-NS empire region.

can you source some recent battlereports to enforce this theory that nullsec is a problem to lowsec

Cynos and caps belong in NS, in unrestricted space.
Cynos are for bypassing gatecamps (bad for LS)
Cynos are for dropping overwhelming force (really bad for LS as a NS neighbor)
Cynos are for bypassing bubbles (REALLY bad for LS, as they have no bubbles to begin with).

- interceptors are also for bypassing gatecamps and bubbles which are available anywhere

NS has used these mechanics to make LS its little b***h.

yeah if thats what you think

Cynos/caps should operate in NS, where there are no restrictions on engagement, and those rules are equal.


you will need to be a bit more specific here to whatever you are implying

You dont need LS, and LS doesnt need you.
Fk off to NS where you belong.

same can be said for you, your killboard shows you do nothing in this game, so either post on a main or stfu and go back to highsec as lowsec seems too intense for you.

Post-change, you can simply move to NS.
Its not a problem. LS will do fine without you.

maybe, but could ccp deal happily with a mass unsub of thousands of capital alts, cyno alts, blops alts, super alts?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#344 - 2017-03-20 15:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
sero Hita wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Cynos and caps gtfo of LS to NS, where they are rational and belong.

LS will do very well without cynos or caps, and sub-caps is what LS wants, deserves and is a appropriate to its content and mechanics.

Especially without NS cyno/caps dropping with impunity on LS, whereas LS drops to NS suffer from bubbles and smartbombs.

Go play cynos/caps where they belong.
In NS.


Lowsec would do fine without caps, and cynos

Good job.

You agreed LS will do fine without cynos/caps, and then gave an example of how an LS mega-coalition forced you to displace with CAPS (which almost certainly had NS based reinforcement and interests).

You singlehandedly obliterated your own position that cynos and caps should not be removed from LS.



I did not obliterate any position. If you could read, you would know that my point is that caps are not the problem in lowsec. They are need for the very reason I said: To remove people from your territory due to lack of sov systems. Us being removed is not a bad thing. We were too weak. Now we have landed somewhere where we are not too weak. Worked out great

I do not accept your intial assumption, that Lowsec entities does not want caps. I also do not accept that everyone who disagrees with your selfproclaimed goals of lowsec should leave it for null. There is a reason we are not in null, we don´t want the sov crap but enjoy the fleeting up and pvping the way you can only do in low. that is what lowsec is for IMO. And my opinion is just as much worth as yours.

Edit: I also don´t accept your argument, that just because Caps by your standards are not needed in low, that they should be removed. It is a game we play for fun, not a simulation to optimize efficiency on what is needed and what not. Hence you will need to find another argument than: it is not needed. As doesn´t have to be needed, in order to be in the game.. there are no requirements for this, and least of all when the definition of needed is your homebrewn one

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
MoonDragn
ZiTek
#345 - 2017-03-20 15:45:24 UTC
So what you guys are basically saying is that you feel that you should be able to destroy ships that are worth billions of isk with a little bubble and smart bombs that cost a tiny percentage of that amount?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#346 - 2017-03-20 15:48:13 UTC
MoonDragn wrote:
So what you guys are basically saying is that you feel that you should be able to destroy ships that are worth billions of isk with a little bubble and smart bombs that cost a tiny percentage of that amount?



wut?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#347 - 2017-03-20 15:48:27 UTC
MoonDragn wrote:
So what you guys are basically saying is that you feel that you should be able to destroy ships that are worth billions of isk with a little bubble and smart bombs that cost a tiny percentage of that amount?



Nope, that is not what I am saying at least... Perhaps quote next time, so people know to whom you refer?

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#348 - 2017-03-20 16:28:07 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Vokan Narkar wrote:
lowsec is fine only problem is cyno and drops...

obviously cyno cannot be removed but dropping 5 carriers on procurer come on...


This is not a game problem but a player base problem. People would rather hell-dunk than have a fight.


Remove cynos. Player base behavior will change to adapt.


If you think removing cynos will stop the helldunk or blueball mentality in EVE, I now understand why you think removing cyno from LS is a good idea.

Roll
Salvos Rhoska
#349 - 2017-03-20 17:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
sero Hita wrote:
There is a reason we are not in null, we don´t want the sov crap


You can do it just as well in NPC Null.

Or did you forget it even exists?

Take the cynos/caps to where they belong.
Cos it sure isnt LS.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#350 - 2017-03-20 18:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Vokan Narkar wrote:
lowsec is fine only problem is cyno and drops...

obviously cyno cannot be removed but dropping 5 carriers on procurer come on...


This is not a game problem but a player base problem. People would rather hell-dunk than have a fight.


Remove cynos. Player base behavior will change to adapt.


If you think removing cynos will stop the helldunk or blueball mentality in EVE, I now understand why you think removing cyno from LS is a good idea.

Roll


It will stop helldunks from NS into, and in LS, overnight.
Categorically. Period.

LS does not need cyno/caps, nor are they justified there.
LS can do just fine with sub-caps, and without cynos.

Cynos/caps belong in NS.

There are over 3000 NS systems, and only 800ish LS systems.

Go play with your cynos/caps in the vast expanse of NS, instead of trying to justify cramming caps/cynos into a narrow almost four times smaller sector that should be sub-cap and non-cyno, and which has engagement restrictions.

The bias of trying to justify cynos/caps in LS stinks to high heaven.
WTF? Just go to NS instead!

Its right next door and empty!

Wtf are you even doing in LS with cynos/caps?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#351 - 2017-03-20 18:16:30 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Take the cynos/caps to where they belong.
Cos it sure isnt LS.


Show me where this is defined? When did we all sign that document?

That is such bullshit

Finally we came down to the core, your base wrong assumption on which all the rubbish you build on...

Like I said I reject that assumption. Come up with some real arguments instead.. or are you incapable?

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#352 - 2017-03-20 18:17:55 UTC
We will continue to play with our caps in lowsec like the game allows us to, you think they dont belong there but ccp disagrees otherwise they wouldnt be there, ok?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Salvos Rhoska
#353 - 2017-03-20 18:19:51 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Snip


Explain to me how cynos/caps are justified in LS.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#354 - 2017-03-20 18:21:01 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
We will continue to play with our caps in lowsec like the game allows us to, you think they dont belong there but ccp disagrees otherwise they wouldnt be there, ok?


Sure, go ahead and play.

That doesnt stop me from pointing out the issues with cynos/caps existing in LS.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Annabelle Le
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#355 - 2017-03-20 18:25:39 UTC
I'm still kind of new at all this so forgive my ignorance: How do Cynos and Caps ruin LS?

Now from my stand point (never flown anything bigger than a frigate) allowing warp stabs in plexes ruins LS.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#356 - 2017-03-20 18:25:50 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Explain to me how cynos/caps are justified in LS.


Citadel bashing
POS bashing
Other caps
Combat Escalation

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
#357 - 2017-03-20 18:26:04 UTC
Rotho Ataru wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
No offense but you are with darkness which is a nullsec alliance, darkness is never in lowsec, what gives you the idea that Lowsec isn't alive?

In game map or DotLan. FW space is active. Everywhere else in low sec... not really.


This is generally true and where I have found the best PvP content.

You could add pirate FW to other parts of lowsec (or increase the size of certain parts of lowsec) to make them even more interesting.

Other parts of lowsec do have their advantages though.

Interstellar Booty Hunters - Pirate Small Gang PvP Forever!
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
#358 - 2017-03-20 18:26:57 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Explain to me how cynos/caps are justified in LS.


Citadel bashing
POS bashing
Other caps
Combat Escalation


Yes and not to mention jump freighters to get ships out to...well anywhere there is PvP content.

Interstellar Booty Hunters - Pirate Small Gang PvP Forever!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#359 - 2017-03-20 18:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Vokan Narkar wrote:
lowsec is fine only problem is cyno and drops...

obviously cyno cannot be removed but dropping 5 carriers on procurer come on...


This is not a game problem but a player base problem. People would rather hell-dunk than have a fight.


Remove cynos. Player base behavior will change to adapt.


If you think removing cynos will stop the helldunk or blueball mentality in EVE, I now understand why you think removing cyno from LS is a good idea.

Roll


He doesn't tend to demonstrate understanding of what things like this mean. What he thinks happens is that it stops null sec groups from having an influence on low sec.

What it really means is that low sec groups would lose the ability to escalate to caps to stop null sec sub-capital intrusions (because of jump range restrictions, it's null groups fearing low sec caps, not the other way around)

It means MORE null sec groups in low sec camping low/null entry systems to control the movement of materials (null groups would cyno JFs into the null side of the null/low border then gate to high sec to drop off in a high sec station.

It means organized wormhole groups would also lord over low sec (because low sec groups do use caps against them as it's also hard for them to bring their own caps through holes).

And on and on, the results would be the reverse of the intention, because Salvos doesn't understand enough about how people in low and null interact to see that his idea would be terrible. Kind of like that time when he thought you could afk rat with carriers...oh wait, that was yesterday lol.


. At the end of the day Salvos can't be blamed for thinking the way he does, even profession developers have made the mistakes he keeps making. I remember how in 2009 we were told Dominion would do certain things like:

Quote:
We get (hopefully!):

A more comprehensible, streamlined and robust way of showing who owns a particular system
A better conquest experience
More organic, meaningful and fun small-fleet combat
Less territorial sprawl by major alliances
A more diverse and interesting political landscape
More opportunities for players to get involved in nullsec
More awesome emergent gameplay


We know that Dominion did the OPPOSITE of all of that, and in dramatic fashion too. CCP (like Salvos does with his posts) made the mistake of thinking you can engineer people's behavior. You can't, people are opportunistic and devious and will find a way around your game design intentions.

That being said I knod of hope CCP does some of the things Salvos wants to see done. It's clear that you can't just explain things to folks like that, they need to see the bad results of a thing to learn.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#360 - 2017-03-20 18:27:29 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
We will continue to play with our caps in lowsec like the game allows us to, you think they dont belong there but ccp disagrees otherwise they wouldnt be there, ok?


Sure, go ahead and play.

That doesnt stop me from pointing out the issues with cynos/caps existing in LS.



bubbles and smartbombs (so you call them) are not a reason to remove something, they are easy avoidable, if i want to light a cyno in nullsec a fcking bubble isnt gonna stop me, so you basing that bubbles are some sort of capital ship deterant which gives some crazy advantage to engagement terms is stupid

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*