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PLEX change : Cancel PLEX orders and reimburse broker fees?! Really?

Author
Professor JinMine
Project Fruit House
#1 - 2017-03-17 06:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor JinMine
22 MAR update: Somebody talked to CSM, and CSM in return talked to CCP about what's been discussed in this thread. CCP came to their senses. Broker fee will not (cannot. LOL) be refunded



Quote:
Q: What will happen to existing market orders for PLEX when the feature launches?
A: We will cancel all orders and repay fees, as usual when we make a major type conversion.



We should ask where that broker fee reimbursement ISK will come from.
As I see it, CCP has two options here:

A) Pi*s off all Citadel owners by f*cking their wallets, or
B) Duplicate and inject free ISK into the system (because Citadel broker fees are not removed from the game).

And how will CCP calculate the fees to be repaid?

1) Dig through the records for each standing order and pay back the actual fees accumulated
=> again, where would the ISK come from?

2) Calculate the fee at the time of change based on the applicable broker fee rate
=> so I could jack up my citadel's broker fee right before the downtime and everyone who placed PLEX order there receives free ISK? (or I could troll by setting the fee 0.0%) And again, where would the ISK come from?

3) 3% NPC station rate blanket repayment
=> again, free ISK for the people who placed PLEX orders with lower broker fee rates


I'm ok with the new miniPLEX thing, but I really hope CCP plans this thing thorough.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#2 - 2017-03-17 08:21:32 UTC
CCP can easily track every transaction on the market and write a script to reverse PLEX orders. Citadel market owners will have months of warning that the change is coming.

I think it would make more sense to replace the orders with orders for micro PLEX. Simply multiply the quantity and divide the unit price by 500. The script wouldn't be any more complicated and you eliminate the issue of reimbursing brokerage paid to Citadel owners.
Professor JinMine
Project Fruit House
#3 - 2017-03-17 10:27:53 UTC
Do Little wrote:

I think it would make more sense to replace the orders with orders for micro PLEX. Simply multiply the quantity and divide the unit price by 500. The script wouldn't be any more complicated and you eliminate the issue of reimbursing brokerage paid to Citadel owners.


Agree. Too bad it's not what they say they gonna do Sad
Gaius Clabbacus
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2017-03-17 11:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaius Clabbacus
Put up a private citadel, broker fee at max, place sell order for plex (in case of insufficient liquid ISK, recycle the ISK received from broker fees), at the end move all remaining ISK to secondary accounts. Wait for reimbursement.

Nope, this doesn't seem ready for abuse at all.

Edit: buy orders with margin trading skill would also work.
Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#5 - 2017-03-17 12:20:24 UTC
Gaius Clabbacus wrote:
Put up a private citadel, broker fee at max, place sell order for plex (in case of insufficient liquid ISK, recycle the ISK received from broker fees), at the end move all remaining ISK to secondary accounts. Wait for reimbursement.

Nope, this doesn't seem ready for abuse at all.

Edit: buy orders with margin trading skill would also work.


Sounds very EVE-like to me. NO POORS!
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2017-03-17 13:36:03 UTC
Brilliant, I was thinking about how this change can be exploited yesterday but missed that reimbursement loophole. Twisted CCP, your turn ...

I'm my own NPC alt.

Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#7 - 2017-03-17 15:13:10 UTC
this is a variant on what probag did with the plex wall :)

The flip side of it is, what happens if you set corp orders and dont have a corp office when CCP cancels?

Previously they have ended up in impound, which is a bit pricey
IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Holdings
#8 - 2017-03-19 20:14:39 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Brilliant, I was thinking about how this change can be exploited yesterday but missed that reimbursement loophole. Twisted CCP, your turn ...


If you do this, expect a ban. The potential exploit has already been reported to CCP.

Also, I think that it is against EULA to disclose/announce potential exploits to other players, and this thread should maybe be amended accordingly.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2017-03-19 20:29:05 UTC
IChooseYou wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Brilliant, I was thinking about how this change can be exploited yesterday but missed that reimbursement loophole. Twisted CCP, your turn ...


If you do this, expect a ban. The potential exploit has already been reported to CCP.

Also, I think that it is against EULA to disclose/announce potential exploits to other players, and this thread should maybe be amended accordingly.

Salty because the OP defeats your plans with public posting?

I'm my own NPC alt.

Zarek Kree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-03-19 22:40:54 UTC
While I think it's reasonable to wonder how the broker fees will be repaid, people wringing their hands over this is just silly. It's a one-time event that won't mean anything to anybody a week after it happens. There's simply no way for CCP to execute a major change like this without upsetting somebody. Maybe a few people will exploit it or maybe some people will get mildly screwed - big deal. That's EVE.
Gaius Clabbacus
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2017-03-20 00:29:44 UTC
It wouldn't be too hard for CCP to implement this change without screwing up the market or handing out tons of free ISK (a back of the envelope calculation shows a tidy profit for me even if I substract the fortizar as a loss). Just replace all existing orders with orders for the new PLEX token, adjusting prices and volume as appropriate, and they can even give every trader 5 ISK to account for rounding errors.
Zarek Kree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-03-20 00:44:43 UTC
Gaius Clabbacus wrote:
It wouldn't be too hard for CCP to implement this change without screwing up the market or handing out tons of free ISK (a back of the envelope calculation shows a tidy profit for me even if I substract the fortizar as a loss). Just replace all existing orders with orders for the new PLEX token, adjusting prices and volume as appropriate, and they can even give every trader 5 ISK to account for rounding errors.


Sure...and then there will be those who scream about having their orders summarily changed to a different item against their will. If the past policy has been to cancel orders and refund fees after major changes, it seems reasonable to do the same here. And given that CCP has done it this way before, they already have a reference and history in terms of any blowback or unintended consequences. They may as well be consistent where they can.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#13 - 2017-03-20 10:11:02 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
While I think it's reasonable to wonder how the broker fees will be repaid, people wringing their hands over this is just silly. It's a one-time event that won't mean anything to anybody a week after it happens. There's simply no way for CCP to execute a major change like this without upsetting somebody. Maybe a few people will exploit it or maybe some people will get mildly screwed - big deal. That's EVE.



This could easily result in corp wallets winding up in the negative twelve figures.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

IChooseYou
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Holdings
#14 - 2017-03-20 14:46:23 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
IChooseYou wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Brilliant, I was thinking about how this change can be exploited yesterday but missed that reimbursement loophole. Twisted CCP, your turn ...


If you do this, expect a ban. The potential exploit has already been reported to CCP.

Also, I think that it is against EULA to disclose/announce potential exploits to other players, and this thread should maybe be amended accordingly.

Salty because the OP defeats your plans with public posting?


I love this game too much to risk being banned over a few bil (or even a few hundred bil).
Zarek Kree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-03-20 14:59:39 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
This could easily result in corp wallets winding up in the negative twelve figures.



12 figures? you mean 100B+ in broker fees? That's utterly ridiculous. According to EVE Market Data, there's currently about 1.3T (trillion) in PLEX buy orders on the entire EVE market and another 0.7T in sell orders. That's a grand total of a little over 2T in PLEX orders on the market. Even if you assume that half of those are at player controlled stations (though it's less) and then also generously assume a 1.5% broker fee (though it's usually less), that's a maximum of 15B in broker fees that have been paid to players.

Considering I could pay that by myself (and I'm certainly nothing special in regard to my EVE finances), it's hard to weep for such a potential loss being absorbed by the entirety of the rich player base selling PLEX. And that's assuming that CCP takes it from the station owners- they may very well simply print the money because 15B isn't going to destabilize the market in the least.

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2017-03-20 15:46:38 UTC
IChooseYou wrote:

I love this game too much to risk being banned over a few bil (or even a few hundred bil).

Good to read, same here.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2017-03-20 15:52:10 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:


You overlook that owners can set the fee to 50% and spawn fantasy buy orders for PLEX on their own using the margin trade skill and reinvesting the fees they get into new orders until they run out of funds (10T, 100T, 1000T?). Then sit back and wait for the (almost) ISK doubling on patch day, if the fees are spawned and refunded.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#18 - 2017-03-20 16:16:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
Zarek Kree wrote:
Gaius Clabbacus wrote:
It wouldn't be too hard for CCP to implement this change without screwing up the market or handing out tons of free ISK (a back of the envelope calculation shows a tidy profit for me even if I substract the fortizar as a loss). Just replace all existing orders with orders for the new PLEX token, adjusting prices and volume as appropriate, and they can even give every trader 5 ISK to account for rounding errors.


Sure...and then there will be those who scream about having their orders summarily changed to a different item against their will. If the past policy has been to cancel orders and refund fees after major changes, it seems reasonable to do the same here. And given that CCP has done it this way before, they already have a reference and history in terms of any blowback or unintended consequences. They may as well be consistent where they can.


People are already annoyed that they're probably going to lose broker's fees they paid to another player. As far as I can remember past policy for changed items has been mixed, no orders were cancelled for tiericide, nerfs, or RAM multiplication, but for fighters they were, I think that it would be a mistake for PLEX not to be cancelled, and an even bigger one to refund broker's fees paid to players, that includes both Standup markets and outposts.

Tipa Riot wrote:
IChooseYou wrote:

I love this game too much to risk being banned over a few bil (or even a few hundred bil).

Good to read, same here.


If they refunded broker's fees from player markets then I think you could almost triple any liquid ISK you've got. It would be a disaster.
Zarek Kree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2017-03-20 16:18:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek Kree
Tipa Riot wrote:
You overlook that owners can set the fee to 50% and spawn fantasy buy orders for PLEX on their own using the margin trade skill and reinvesting the fees they get into new orders until they run out of funds (10T, 100T, 1000T?). Then sit back and wait for the (almost) ISK doubling on patch day, if the fees are spawned and refunded.


No, what I'm talking about is potential impact to players and station owners who are playing the game within the letter and spirit of the rules. What you're describing is an exploit that CCP can deal with on a case by case basis. Anyone willing to risk a ban or suspension by setting up a bunch of bogus orders at extravagant broker's fees knows the risk. If they think the risk is worth the reward, then I say more power to them. That's part of playing the game too.

The catch-22 is that the only way to fly under the radar with such an exploit is to make so little isk that it's not worth the risk. But to make the reward worthwhile virtually ensures that you'll get caught.

This reimbursement issue is virtually meaningless to people playing within the rules. It's only an issue to people attempting to exploit. If those people take the risk and make some money, I don't care. But I also don't care if CCP drops the hammer on them.

TL; DR: I can't come up with a reason to care one way or another. Neither does 99.99% of the player population. An issue that's only an issue to 0.1% of the player base isn't an issue.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#20 - 2017-03-20 16:23:21 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
Sure...and then there will be those who scream about having their orders summarily changed to a different item against their will.


While of course you are right (someone will scream about any change whatsoever), I think CCP should favour making people whose complaint makes no sense be the ones who do the screaming.

Provided the minimum quantity is set to 500, the conversion of an order for PLEX into 500x as many microPLEX makes no actual difference whatsoever, so if someone complains, they're being silly.
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