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War decs : not achieving objectives

Author
Salvos Rhoska
#301 - 2017-03-16 13:13:12 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Going NPC does have a cost in the form of 10% NPC taxes to everything.

That is not a cost for joining an NPC Corp.
Its a tax on your income after joining an NPC Corp.

Two distinct and different things.
Veyreuth
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#302 - 2017-03-16 13:46:39 UTC
I'm curious... how many days a year is your average corporation of 20+ active members at war? 40+? 100+? In my experience, the days not at war in a month can be counted on one hand. It seems to lose its relevance when it's persistent. I think most people, fresh players included, could last a week here and there. Most players can train up a hauling alt. Most players can adjust their habits to stay relatively safe. The question is, is the system working as intended if most active corporations are at war most of the time? Also, why fight at all as a defender if it doesn't make a difference in forcing a peace?
Salvos Rhoska
#303 - 2017-03-16 13:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Veyreuth wrote:
The question is, is the system working as intended if most active corporations are at war most of the time? Also, why fight at all as a defender if it doesn't make a difference in forcing a peace?

1) Id say yes, in the regard of being in almost perpetual state of war, it is working as intended.
2) If you are grossly outmatched, combat incapable/unwilling, or cant/wont hire/recruit assistance, there is obviously little point in fighting. If you do fight, however, you can attempt to negotiate a peace from a stronger position, depending on your success in the war.
Salvos Rhoska
#304 - 2017-03-16 14:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Pedro:

I have these concerns:
1) How often/readily/cheaply can they swap back and forth between the two?
2) I really dont like the idea of hundreds if not thousands of individual Player turned NPC Corps in HS.
3) I really, really, dont like that their only threat, is from suicide ganking.
4) What happens to inspace assets when changing Corp status, such as POCOs/Citadels/EC etc?

I understand this would make it easier to move the Corp itself into a quasi-NPC Corp state.

But does this not make HS safety/ease commensurately greater?
This is an even more efficient means to sidestep a wardec, than before.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#305 - 2017-03-16 15:21:03 UTC
Veyreuth wrote:
Also, why fight at all as a defender if it doesn't make a difference in forcing a peace?

and if you fight as defender you make sure the war will be prolonged.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Black Pedro
Mine.
#306 - 2017-03-16 15:21:46 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Pedro:

I have these concerns:
1) How often/readily/cheaply can they swap back and forth between the two?
2) I really dont like the idea of hundreds if not thousands of individual Player turned NPC Corps in HS.
3) I really, really, dont like that their only threat, is from suicide ganking.
4) What happens to inspace assets when changing Corp status, such as POCOs/Citadels/EC etc?


1) I have no idea. Maybe never? You either make a 'social' corp or a 'competitive' corp and that is it.
2) This could be annoying and does devalue the identity part of being in a corp under one banner as one group. I am also ok with the 'societies' idea where there would just be another level of social group you can belong to that would have the social functions of a corp (channel, calendar, mailing list) but nothing else. You would still then be in the NPC corp (or a player corp if you want with the accordant risk) but you would now have some way to be in a social group while opting out of wars.
3) This is already the case. People in NPC corps have nothing else to worry about but criminals in highsec. Nothing is changing.
4) There would be no in-space assets. Nor taxation. Nor shared hangers. Just a name and chat channel like the current NPC corps. And if you did allow a 'social' corp to become a real one, it could never go back for the reasons you articulated.

You could also cap the number of members or have other unique restrictions - the details aren't too important. The idea is just to give players a formal way to opt-out of wars like they are already doing, but maintain ties to a social group. There is no reason that being social and playing competitively have to be tied so closely together. Many people are in corps primarily for social reasons who don't even use the majority of the benefits of corporations yet who are subject to wars all the same as corporations who hold space or own structures.

I am not a fan of NPC corps being at in a permawar with each other. Possibly it could work and I see the advantage of helping players get used to the idea of fighting, risk and ship loss, but there should be a (poorly paying) place in New Eden for the truly loss-averse or players rebuilding from a complete loss to play the game without worrying about wars. The NPC corp is that suppose to be that place. Some players just don't want to fight other players under any circumstance, and we should allow them to pay a subscription and play the game in near (but not complete) safety under the watchful eye of CONCORD for much reduced rewards.

The current problem with it is that player corporations offer very little in additional benefits over what you can earn from the NPC corp. I would rather see the income potential of players in player corps buffed (or perhaps those in the NPC corp nerfed a little more, likely both would be needed) rather than reducing NPC corp safety.
Salvos Rhoska
#307 - 2017-03-16 15:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Black Pedro wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Pedro:

I have these concerns:
1) How often/readily/cheaply can they swap back and forth between the two?
2) I really dont like the idea of hundreds if not thousands of individual Player turned NPC Corps in HS.
3) I really, really, dont like that their only threat, is from suicide ganking.
4) What happens to inspace assets when changing Corp status, such as POCOs/Citadels/EC etc?


1) I have no idea. Maybe never? You either make a 'social' corp or a 'competitive' corp and that is it.
2) This could be annoying and does devalue the identity part of being in a corp under one banner as one group. I am also ok with the 'societies' idea where there would just be another level of social group you can belong to that would have the social functions of a corp (channel, calendar, mailing list) but nothing else. You would still then be in the NPC corp (or a player corp if you want with the accordant risk) but you would now have some way to be in a social group while opting out of wars.
3) This is already the case. People in NPC corps have nothing else to worry about but criminals in highsec. Nothing is changing.
4) There would be no in-space assets. Nor taxation. Nor shared hangers. Just a name and chat channel like the current NPC corps. And if you did allow a 'social' corp to become a real one, it could never go back for the reasons you articulated.


1) Hmm. But this doesnt change Corp creation mechanics. So a wardecced Comp Corp can just reform as a new Social Corp, and swap back to the Comp Corp when the wardec expires.
2) Im not averse to a "society" system, might create/enable content. Unlikely, but possible. More social interaction is always a good thing imo. The annoyance of 100s/1000s of Social Corps can perhaps be diminished with a color/icon indicator.
3) I know its the case, but I dont like that its the case. Im more hawkish than you, and operate off a different premise. This toon has lived in its starting NPC Corp since day one, and I would not object to a single diametrically opposed NPC Corp introducing spontaneous risk/opportunity to it. Im not going to argue your subsequent explanation of why NPC Corps should only be subject to criminal action as PvP in HS. I see why you see that as imperative, just as Im sure you see why I see it my way.
4) No taxation? Do you mean no tax, or no control of tax rate? Would it be the nominal 10% sink as in true NPC Corps?

PS: I havent ignored the rest of your civil and constructive post though I didnt address it at this time.
It has been duly read, understood and appreciated.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#308 - 2017-03-16 15:58:09 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Wars are not a "gud fight" machine designed to produce somewhat equal and balanced conflict. That would be Faction Warfare. Wars are just the way fighting is done and the larger competitive game manifests itself in highsec. They allow players to interact and compete for resources, space and industry using guns, often in a completely unbalanced way. I really do think there should be a place and mechanism to allow players to opt-out of this conflict and play the game casually and/or non-competitively, and there already are, most notably the NPC corp. That said, if you want to benefit from corps, especially if you want to own structures, you should be at risk of the other players objecting and declaring war on you. You are not entitled to have some guarantee that those players who show up to shoot you will be of similar size or of similar power to you. If you allow 'smallness' and 'weakness' to become a valid defense against aggressors, then many people will just make themselves 'small' and 'weak' to exploit this safety which is counterproductive in a Darwinian open-world, PvP sandbox game. It is up to you to protect your stuff from all-comers.

This description fits to null not hisec. Hard to believe that corps in hisec fight for space and resources.
Black Pedro wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
1) Why do we go to war in hisec?
2) Do defenders in hisec actively defend himself?
3) How big are corps warddeced in hisec?
1) Wars are the means that player groups interact with each other in highsec. It can be done for many reasons which are largely immaterial in a sandbox game. It is up to the players to decide how to use the mechanic to make stuff happen. I do admit we could use some more conflict drivers put into the game to give players more reasons to want to take the risk and effort to start a war, but ultimately the reasons are not relevant to the mechanic. It is just a way to turn of the NPCs and allow legal fighting to take place between a defined group of players.
2) I don't know. You can defend yourself in many ways including evasion, taking the field, and securing allies. All I know is that if you are in a player corporation, you should have to defend yourself. If you don't want to compete, well then you can go play another game, or use the intended method to end the war and drop to the NPC corp and forgo the benefits you get for being in a player corp.
3) I have no idea. Again, it doesn't matter. Eve isn't a balanced PvP game and there are already mechanics for the defenders to add allies to the war and turn the tables on the attackers. I'd love for there to be more wars between equal (and smaller) sides fighting over provincial things, but wars have been nerfed such that they are too risky and too expensive for your average small corp to use. This has made declaring war more of a professional activity and generally increase the power gap between two sides.

In 1) I was inaccurate. I meant is there something in hisec worth fighting for?
The way I see hisec wars from my perspective and experience. I think there are very few wars, over evertyhing you describe above, between two corps in hisec. There are corps specialized in wardeccing. Those corps wardecc as many high member corps as possible. Those corps camp hubs, trade routes and hisec HQ of wardecced corps hoping for decced corp members mistakes. It is my speculations but if I had merc corp this would be my modus operandi. Now is it healthy evirnoment? IMO no.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#309 - 2017-03-16 16:21:49 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
My proposal merely puts a cost on avoiding a wardec by going NPC, whereas now it is free.
It doesnt change the wardec system itself at all.

The NPC corps being at war with their opposite, also doesnt change wardec mechanics.
It just reduces the safety of NPC corps.

So in other words: attacker corp will be bribing concord to shoot pilots under their guns and defender corp will be bribing NPC corp to take them under their wing. You just add more cost to the war. What will this solve?


Nothing.

Those who already are fine with PvP will do nothing.

Those who don't like PvP at all will simply log off for a week. This idea of having CCP try and put players who do not want ship-to-ship at all into PvP situations is not a good idea IMO.

Basically it is: if the carrot won't work beat them with the stick.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Salvos Rhoska
#310 - 2017-03-16 16:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

The way I see hisec wars from my perspective and experience. I think there are very few wars, over evertyhing you describe above, between two corps in hisec. There are corps specialized in wardeccing. Those corps wardecc as many high member corps as possible. Those corps camp hubs, trade routes and hisec HQ of wardecced corps hoping for decced corp members mistakes. It is my speculations but if I had merc corp this would be my modus operandi. Now is it healthy evirnoment? IMO no.


If I may interject:

1) There are many small scale local wars in HS, for various reasons, fought in various ways, especially in remote regions of HS, where its typically less likely the parties are NS front Corps.
2) Yes, there are Corps which specialize in wardeccing Corps inorder to intercept their transit along major trade lanes.
Nothing wrong with that. They pay to do so.
3) Mercs are a complicated situation. Mass wardec Corps, are not typically Mercs. Mercs deal with individual player clients.
The distinction could be described as between Mercenaries and Privateers.
Privateers purchase a "Letter of Marque" allowing them to legally engage targets.
Mercenaries instead provide a service, for which the client pays.

Unfortunately due to the total aggregate of systemic changes throughout the game and player behavior, the demand for Mercs, and their capacity to fulfill their work, has been lessened to the point they are increasingly instead driven to mass war deccing to feed themselves.
Salvos Rhoska
#311 - 2017-03-16 16:28:12 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Those who already are fine with PvP will do nothing.


Are you "fine" with the current rate and format of PvP in HS?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#312 - 2017-03-16 16:31:15 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
For now I've only see one proposition worth think of
Vincent Athena wrote:
The only thing I can see to help the issue: Limit war decs to those groups of players who enjoy that style of game play. One way to do this: A corp can declare itself neutral. Doing so means it cannot be in a war, not as an attacker, defender, or ally. For balance it also means it cannot be in an alliance, or have any in-space structures (POS, citadel, complex, etc.)

but I think it would void all hisec wars.
I am not so sure. This is already effectively in the game: you are not forced to participate in wars, ever. You can always drop to an NPC corp, hop between corps, or stay in the NPC corp and use chat channels to organize social groups. I think as long as risk vs. reward is respected, and the "neutral" corp (or social corp or whatever you want to call it) has none of the advantages of a true player corp, and all of the mechanical drawbacks of the NPC corp nothing has changed, wars should remain more-or-less as they are.

I think though that if we are re-doing wars, there are other issue that we do need to address. There needs to be some sort of penalty or prohibition to stop or discourage this corp hopping. You should always be able to drop corp when you have had enough of a war or your leadership, but you should not be able to immediately hop into another and start earning the full benefits of s player corp immediately after. That loophole makes a mockery of risk vs. reward and leave no need for commitment to being in a particular player corp.

If you want ideas, I would suggest to discourage this that a 7 day, limited kill right is generated for opposition corporations in legal wars if a player who drops corp during a war joins another player corp during the remainder of the original war. If they stay in the NPC corp until the original war expires then nothing happens and they are free to join another corp with no penalty. Alternatively you could just straight-out lock out a player from joining a new corporation until the wars they were under when they drop corp expire. This might also have the benefit of clamping down on some of the more arcane corp-switching techniques used to gain advantage over those not familiar with the war mechanics. It would however limit the ability of some players, especially those in corps constantly at war, to change corporations easily.


Or if you drop to an NPC corp you are stuck there for X days. Make X days kind of "long" so that it is seen as more of a downside. And this does address, in some regards the risk vs. reward. Instead of pumping up the risk, it pushes down the reward. No more corp hangars, no more anchoring stuff, etc.

If you do a kill right those who drop corp may very well simply not log in for the duration of that kill right.

I think a key point to keep in mind that with war decs some of these players simply not not want ship-to-ship PvP. Ever. The idea of pushing some of them into that kind of PvP may very well push them out of the game, at least temporarily.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#313 - 2017-03-16 16:33:38 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Those who already are fine with PvP will do nothing.


Are you "fine" with the current rate and format of PvP in HS?


That is not what I meant. I was indicating those who are not opposed to PvP will likely see little or no benefit to your suggested change. If I'm fine with ship-to-ship PvP I was probably not going to drop corp to begin with. Adding on an extra cost is going to have little effect on me.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#314 - 2017-03-16 16:37:26 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
2) Yes, there are Corps which specialize in wardeccing Corps inorder to intercept their transit along major trade lanes.
Nothing wrong with that. They pay to do so.

Where is the risk in that activity? Constant wardecc of 10 biggest hisec corps. How many times those corps were shot back?

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
3) Mercs are a complicated situation. Mass wardec Corps, are not typically Mercs. Mercs deal with individual player clients.
The distinction could be described as between Mercenaries and Privateers.

What do you mean by "individual player clients"?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#315 - 2017-03-16 16:40:19 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Going NPC does have a cost in the form of 10% NPC taxes to everything.

That is not a cost for joining an NPC Corp.
Its a tax on your income after joining an NPC Corp.

Two distinct and different things.


Whatâ„¢?

If you know your income is going to be reduced by 10% pretty sure you'll see that as a cost.

If you were a business and there was going to be a change in regulations, for example, that was going to raise your costs by 10% you'd see it as a cost. You'd likely respond with reducing however much you produce, raising your price, both, and in some cases maybe even shutting down operations and moving on to the next best opportunity.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Salvos Rhoska
#316 - 2017-03-16 16:43:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
I think a key point to keep in mind that with war decs some of these players simply not not want ship-to-ship PvP. Ever. The idea of pushing some of them into that kind of PvP may very well push them out of the game, at least temporarily.

They are playing a PvP based game.

If they choose not to play a PvP based game for a week, so as to avoid PvP, then so be it.

Perfectly valid tactic.
Salvos Rhoska
#317 - 2017-03-16 16:48:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Those who already are fine with PvP will do nothing.


Are you "fine" with the current rate and format of PvP in HS?


That is not what I meant. I was indicating those who are not opposed to PvP will likely see little or no benefit to your suggested change. If I'm fine with ship-to-ship PvP I was probably not going to drop corp to begin with. Adding on an extra cost is going to have little effect on me.


Clearly the proposal was towards those that are opposed to PvP.

Ofc it doesnt affect those whom are not.

You are stating the obvious, as if it refutes the proposal.
It does not.

But you didnt answer my question.
It was stated outright, not as a factor of context.

Are you "fine" with the current rate and format of PvP in HS?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#318 - 2017-03-16 16:51:10 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
2) Yes, there are Corps which specialize in wardeccing Corps inorder to intercept their transit along major trade lanes.
Nothing wrong with that. They pay to do so.

Where is the risk in that activity? Constant wardecc of 10 biggest hisec corps. How many times those corps were shot back?

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
3) Mercs are a complicated situation. Mass wardec Corps, are not typically Mercs. Mercs deal with individual player clients.
The distinction could be described as between Mercenaries and Privateers.

What do you mean by "individual player clients"?


Risk in this game is not something CCP imposes. It is imposed by other players. And there is nothing that says risk has to be symmetrical. In fact, if you bring more friends to the fight you are trying to tilt the risk against the other side. Nothing wrong with that in this game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Black Pedro
Mine.
#319 - 2017-03-16 16:53:09 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
This description fits to null not hisec. Hard to believe that corps in hisec fight for space and resources.
No, that is what highsec is suppose to be. True, you can't formally claim space, but you are definitely suppose to be competing with other corps for power. Highsec isn't suppose to be some conflict-free PvE paradise where you can be left alone. It is why wars are in the game and have been left there despite all the grumbling for so long.

CCP has certainly failed to deliver many conflict drivers, and made some big mistakes like allowing invulnerable POSes to remain for so long, but highsec is every much a competitive place as elsewhere. The Upwell structures are a recent reminder that is this is their design intention.

Complaining that you are at risk to other groups in highsec too much is a waste of time. Being at war is "working as intended".

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
The way I see hisec wars from my perspective and experience. I think there are very few wars, over evertyhing you describe above, between two corps in hisec. There are corps specialized in wardeccing. Those corps wardecc as many high member corps as possible. Those corps camp hubs, trade routes and hisec HQ of wardecced corps hoping for decced corp members mistakes. It is my speculations but if I had merc corp this would be my modus operandi. Now is it healthy evirnoment? IMO no.
I think the current situation isn't idea and would support changes to bring back more hunting-style wars and more structure fights (perhaps by giving them lucrative yet limited benefits to their owners so there is reason to spend the effort to attack them), but I see no problem that someone can declare war on you without your consent or if they are overwhelmingly more powerful than you. If you don't want to deal with wars, just stay in the NPC corp as CCP intends for you to do. Your choice.

If someone wants to gank you, harass your shipping/trading, attempt to extort you using the war mechanic or try to attack you for whatever sandbox reason they have, it is up to you to play the defender and deal with it. That is perfectly healthy and even necessary for emergent player interactions to appear.

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
1) I was inaccurate. I meant is there something in hisec worth fighting for?
In this I agree completely with you. There are precious little real conflict drivers in highsec, and less and less in the whole game really. Highsec desperately needs more resources/bonuses/prizes to fight over like POCOs and Market Modules that are limited and valuable. When there is nothing to fight over, players have to invent reasons to actually shoot each other in a spaceship game about shooting other spaceships, reasons which more peaceful players are quick to label as 'griefing'. I think PvP would be much healthier in highsec if there were clear objectives that players could fight over and give them more reward for engaging in those PvP risks.

I also think this would provide engagement to a whole class of players who are interested in PvP, but never find a reason to actually attack someone and drift away from the game. They build and build in preparation for competing with other players, but when opposition never find them, and they never find anything worth fighting over, they get bored and quit the game. Adding some small objectives in highsec for smaller groups to fight over and claim may help keep them engaged and maybe even set them on their way to nullsec.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#320 - 2017-03-16 16:53:53 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Those who already are fine with PvP will do nothing.


Are you "fine" with the current rate and format of PvP in HS?


That is not what I meant. I was indicating those who are not opposed to PvP will likely see little or no benefit to your suggested change. If I'm fine with ship-to-ship PvP I was probably not going to drop corp to begin with. Adding on an extra cost is going to have little effect on me.


Clearly the proposal was towards those that are opposed to PvP.

Ofc it doesnt affect those whom are not.

You are stating the obvious, as if it refutes the proposal.
It does not.

But you didnt answer my question.
It was stated outright, not as a factor of context.

Are you "fine" with the current rate and format of PvP in HS?


You are ignoring the rest of my post and focusing on a minor part of it.

As to your question, what is the point? We all seem to see that there are issues with PvP in HS.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online