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Capital Ships restricted to Large Citadels?
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Mister Holder
Faceless Men
#1 - 2017-03-12 14:32:11 UTC
This has probably already been discussed at length, but I am just coming back to the game after a long break.

Can someone explain to me what CCP's thought process was when it restricted capital ship docking and construction to large citadels and up? With the POS system you could do any of this with a medium POS which costs a fraction of what it costs to put up a large citadel. Now we are forced to spend 6b+ for a large engineering complex with rigs, or 13b+ for large citadel vs what, 750m for a medium setup for capital construction/docking?


That is the end of my complaining.

Thanks for listening. You are all great pals.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2 - 2017-03-12 14:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Because Medium citadels would be abused until the end of time...? Also they were specifically designed for certain sizes of ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Keno Skir
#3 - 2017-03-12 14:44:05 UTC
You couldn't get out of your supercap and leave assuming it was reasonably safe with a medium POS. Eveyone could see your cap sat there and would blow up the med POS to get at it. Bad guys could bump your titan (with or without you in it) outside the POS and kill it, which again cannot happen with the new system. No password to enter every time u want to dock, no getting trapped outside when you forget.

There are improvements.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

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Sir BloodArgon Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2017-03-12 15:46:44 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Bad guys could bump your titan (with or without you in it) outside the POS and kill it.


Too bad that's an exploit
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#5 - 2017-03-12 16:03:13 UTC
Sir BloodArgon Aulmais wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
Bad guys could bump your titan (with or without you in it) outside the POS and kill it.


Too bad that's an exploit

Yes and no.

Exploit to bump it from outside the force field if it's completely inside, but no problem to bump it from inside the force field.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#6 - 2017-03-12 16:04:04 UTC
Mister Holder wrote:
Can someone explain to me what CCP's thought process was when it restricted capital ship docking and construction to large citadels and up?

money

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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#7 - 2017-03-12 17:35:03 UTC
I'm pretty sure CCP didn't set out to make new structures in the image of "like POS, only less buggy". Rather, they wanted a) feature parity and b) a system that actually makes sense in their vision of the game. That drove costs up for some common activities (basic manufacturing, capital asset storage) but also introduced new risk mitigation and benefits at the same time. So... they're different, but the one that more closely aligns with CCP's long term goals is the one that is going to stick around.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#8 - 2017-03-12 18:15:04 UTC
The fact that Citadels are near indestructible and risk-free to operate through asset safety and zero base fuel costs is clearl evidence they were not modelled on existing POS. Citadel proliferation has become as bad in some areas as supercapital proliferation. These vulnerability windows are quickly destroying what little content remains in the game.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mister Holder
Faceless Men
#9 - 2017-03-13 09:15:14 UTC
The issue is that it now takes what, 20b+ to be able to build, and dock a capital ship in a c3 and under? It confuses me that a 5b Azbel that is able to construct a capital ship is incapable of docking one...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#10 - 2017-03-13 09:57:14 UTC
Mister Holder wrote:
The issue is that it now takes what, 20b+ to be able to build, and dock a capital ship in a c3 and under? It confuses me that a 5b Azbel that is able to construct a capital ship is incapable of docking one...

Maybe CCP deliberately intended for Capital shipyards and docking berths that can dock an unlimited number of caps to cost more than the capital does. Just you know..... a stray thought on the matter. A POS could only hold a very limited number of Caps, a Fortizar can hold as many as you want.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2017-03-13 10:04:49 UTC
Well the original plan had "mooring" options for caps/supers to basically attach themselves to undersized citadels and gain access to basic services.



They just can't figure out how to actually code that.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2017-03-13 13:07:06 UTC
Shipyards are not docks.
Assembly lines are not parking lots.

Why would you ever expect them to be?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#13 - 2017-03-13 13:59:59 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
Well the original plan had "mooring" options for caps/supers to basically attach themselves to undersized citadels and gain access to basic services.

They just can't figure out how to actually code that.

I would've been cool, but they would've had to limit the number of external ships that could dock.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mister Holder
Faceless Men
#14 - 2017-03-13 14:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Holder
I guess I'm just complaining because the investment needed with citadels is exponentially higher than what it was with a pos to build, and even dock a friggin capital ship. It has essentially priced smaller corps in whs out of being able to have vaporizing ships in c3 and under holes. As it stands it takes 6.5b to get an abzel with calorific constructing abilities up in the hole, and another 13b or so to be able to dock it. That also doesn't take into account the very real possibility of them getting raped during the 15 minutes after the 24 hour anchor timer since an extremely small fleet is able to pop them during that time.
Myxx
The Scope
#15 - 2017-03-13 16:23:18 UTC
Mister Holder wrote:
I guess I'm just complaining because the investment needed with citadels is exponentially higher than what it was with a pos to build, and even dock a friggin capital ship. It has essentially priced smaller corps in whs out of being able to have vaporizing ships in c3 and under holes. As it stands it takes 6.5b to get an abzel with calorific constructing abilities up in the hole, and another 13b or so to be able to dock it. That also doesn't take into account the very real possibility of them getting raped during the 15 minutes after the 24 hour anchor timer since an extremely small fleet is able to pop them during that time.

As a cap builder and pilot, if you cannot organize and field a standing fleet capable of defending a large citadel during its vulnerability period, you do not have the capability to support a capital in combat with the proper subcaps. It is therefore irrelevant to you.
Cade Windstalker
#16 - 2017-03-13 16:43:54 UTC
OP, if you can't afford a Large structure then just keep the cap-toon out in space and safe-logoff the character inside the tethering radius. There's a small increase in risk due to easier bumping compared to a POS, but it's still usable. Just don't AFK in your hole.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2017-03-13 17:25:37 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Shipyards are not docks.
Assembly lines are not parking lots.

Why would you ever expect them to be?


You are right but from the other point of view, since production slots are unlimited, they actually kinda are. If a shipyard has 300 dry docks, you can effectively dock 300 ships there if you are not building anything. Now push this to infinity and yeah...
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2017-03-13 20:46:38 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
OP, if you can't afford a Large structure then just keep the cap-toon out in space and safe-logoff the character inside the tethering radius. There's a small increase in risk due to easier bumping compared to a POS, but it's still usable. Just don't AFK in your hole.


I thought titans didn't dissapear when you logged out and they were always in space.
Cade Windstalker
#19 - 2017-03-13 21:03:52 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
OP, if you can't afford a Large structure then just keep the cap-toon out in space and safe-logoff the character inside the tethering radius. There's a small increase in risk due to easier bumping compared to a POS, but it's still usable. Just don't AFK in your hole.


I thought titans didn't dissapear when you logged out and they were always in space.


Gods no, there would be *so many dead Titans* if this was the case. There are Titan pilots sitting in systems that aren't safe to log into and they haven't logged in for *years* because doing so basically means death.

Titans disappear out of space like any other ship. In fact the entire reason ships no longer disappear out of space with a combat timer is because at one point it was so hard to kill a Titan that the standard tactic for a tackled Titan pilot was to force a logoff and then their ship would disappear 15 minutes later.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#20 - 2017-03-13 22:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Mister Holder wrote:
Can someone explain to me what CCP's thought process was when it restricted capital ship docking and construction to large citadels and up?

CCP have never posted their reasons, as far as I know, and I read the forums and blogs way too much.

I have seen CCP post their intentions for docking, though (can't find the post at the moment).

I would guess that the reason is cost vs. reward, and that citadels are the benchmark. Hence engineering complexes being far less expensive, they have reduced docking capabilities.

The new meta is if you want to dock a capital, you need to pay nearly the cost of an old outpost. Yes, there is a loss of functionality and cost effectiveness compared with POS. This is not the only example of that. It is just something we have no choice but to adapt to.
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