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Jamyl Sarum a reflection
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Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#41 - 2017-03-09 19:35:34 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
Miz you really hit the crux of the discussion.

I noted a tenuous thread between the Sani Sabik and the Sarum Family and exploited it.

However just how much of the matter is true remains to be discovered.

What brought me to this discussion is of the sects that I was part of before my "slumber" stressed the importance of working with Sarum Family. In fact several of my Teachers were a part of the Order of St. Tetrimon (sp?) long before they were CEO's and later various heads of the Sani Sabik Faith.

Thus I see some very direct connections based those teachings.

It would be very curious to see just how much there is Sarum/Sani Sabik connection. Almost as interesting as Karsoth and his connection to the Blood Raiders.


If tenuous thread that binds the two is anti ignorance and ambition, then you can as well make connections with aliastra and sani sabik too, because color red. All those Aliastra stations in the Empire, coincidence? ... obviously not they are all sani sabik cells corrupting the faithful with their gen moded food and other heretical tat, true story.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2017-03-09 19:35:35 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
And I still contend that simply because perfection is and has been out of reach, that is no excuse to reject the striving towards ideals rather than embracing lies, dishonesty and such fundamentally flawed tools when building a society.

The subject of spirituality is one for a different thread, however.


When the exceptional fight for perfect, it often dooms the average to a very poor standard of living. Far better to achieve mediocrity - most people can be perfectly happy with food, shelter, school for their kids and a hospital just in case. Throw in enough playing around money for the occasional night out and you've earned the support of the masses.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Jev North
Doomheim
#43 - 2017-03-09 20:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jev North
Jade Blackwind wrote:
"Nothing that can be done is truly forbidden" - that's a quite Sabik way of thought , isn't it?


Of course. Most of the bastard offshoots of Sabik popular with capsuleers are deliberately engineered to appeal to us.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#44 - 2017-03-09 20:13:12 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
My first question is how did she not branded a "Heretic" by the Theology Council?

Did she do this for simple grab for power ?


Answer to question 1:

The Theology Council is a Competent and Pragmatic Body of Theological Scholars. One does Not oversee Religious Matters of a Multi-Stellar Community for two Thousand Years without being Competent and Pragmatic.


Answer to question 2:

Inconclusive. I never Met the Empress Jamyl 1 in Person, Despite Several Requests to meet a fellow Monarch to Discuss Issues. This means I am Unable to Offer an Assessment of her Personality and/or Motives.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#45 - 2017-03-09 20:14:40 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
When the exceptional fight for perfect, it often dooms the average to a very poor standard of living. Far better to achieve mediocrity - most people can be perfectly happy with food, shelter, school for their kids and a hospital just in case. Throw in enough playing around money for the occasional night out and you've earned the support of the masses.


Don't know how intentional that was, but it highlights the difference between our culture and the State. Where you see a reach for perfection by the exceptional as a selfish thing focused on attaining perfection for said exceptional, a Tribeswoman would see a reach for perfection for her family, clan and tribe without treading upon them to raise oneself higher.

Contest would of course still be a thing, because without conflict there's no grinder to separate the flawed and broken ideals or ideas from those capable of withstanding such scrutiny and conflict, but the primary concern of any 'exceptional' among us is those within our demesne.

When the exceptional strives to reach higher, among us, it is to raise all the others we are bound to even higher.

So many things we have in common, the Tribes and the State. Yet the gulfs that are between us are deep and wide.
Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#46 - 2017-03-09 20:20:30 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
Miz you really hit the crux of the discussion.

I noted a tenuous thread between the Sani Sabik and the Sarum Family and exploited it.

However just how much of the matter is true remains to be discovered.

What brought me to this discussion is of the sects that I was part of before my "slumber" stressed the importance of working with Sarum Family. In fact several of my Teachers were a part of the Order of St. Tetrimon (sp?) long before they were CEO's and later various heads of the Sani Sabik Faith.

Thus I see some very direct connections based those teachings.

It would be very curious to see just how much there is Sarum/Sani Sabik connection. Almost as interesting as Karsoth and his connection to the Blood Raiders.


If tenuous thread that binds the two is anti ignorance and ambition, then you can as well make connections with aliastra and sani sabik too, because color red. All those Aliastra stations in the Empire, coincidence? ... obviously not they are all sani sabik cells corrupting the faithful with their gen moded food and other heretical tat, true story.


Are you so certain?

Having be a part of not just one but a couple of Sani Sabik organizations who are devoted to our Faith and yet publicly support House Sarum can seem more then tenuous.

We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.
Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#47 - 2017-03-09 20:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Casserina Leshrac
Synthetic Cultist wrote:


Answer to question 1:

The Theology Council is a Competent and Pragmatic Body of Theological Scholars. One does Not oversee Religious Matters of a Multi-Stellar Community for two Thousand Years without being Competent and Pragmatic.


I would have to respectfully disagree about your assessment of the Theology Council.

They are "competent and pragmatic" only when it suits them. Perhaps they have changed since I last consulted with them.

We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.
Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2017-03-09 21:42:51 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
#FAKENEWS


Sad! And Heretical!
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2017-03-10 01:54:46 UTC
Jade Blackwind wrote:
"Nothing that can be done is truly forbidden" - that's a quite Sabik way of thought , isn't it?


In the sense that it's another jagged-edged chunk of truth sharp enough to cut yourself and others with, yes.

I don't dislike the Sani Sabik because they're wrong. I dislike them because (1) they're awful and (2) they're limited, and boring as dust. They've found a shiny, jagged shard of reality, and instead of expanding outward and looking for more, they've made a fetish of it and basically spend their time playing power games and congratulating themselves on how insightful they are.

Sure, they've got something real. They don't seem to get that it's not the only thing that is.

There's more to this world than power. They've found a beginning, and refused to just accept it, leave it, and move on. For thousands of years.

It's ... pitiable.
Ascentior
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2017-03-10 02:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ascentior
Jade Blackwind wrote:
Of course Jamyl Sarum was a clone. Only someone who believes in a random holiday spirit teleporing presents into socks can think otherwise.

Unknown Speaker wrote:
A 180 year old man was having his annual checkup,
and the doctor asked him how he was feeling.
"I've never been better!" he boasted.

"I've got an eighteen year old bride who's pregnant,
and having my child! What do you think about that?"

The doctor considered this for a moment, then said,
"Let me tell you a story. I knew a guy who was an avid hunter.
He never missed a season. But one day went out in a bit of a hurry,
and he accidentally grabbed his umbrella instead of his pulse rifle."

The doctor continued, "So he was in the woods,
and suddenly a slave hound appeared in front of him!
He raised up his umbrella, pointed it at the slave hound,
and squeezed the handle."

"And do you know what happened?"the doctor queried.

Dumbfounded, the old man replied "No."

The doctor continued, "The slave hound dropped dead in front of him!"

"That's impossible!" exclaimed the old man.
"Someone else must have shot that slave hound."

"That's kind of what I'm getting at..."
replied the doctor.

You see, it is simply not plausible that Jamyl Sarum was a clone. The mechanisms in place to prevent it require such amazing collaboration and secrecy that it is boggling that anyone believes it could be pulled off.
You are all happy to assume she shot a slave hound with an Umbrella, rather than accept that there was another force at play.

Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment)

Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy

Chosen by God to serve the Empire.
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#51 - 2017-03-10 04:30:17 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:

Having be a part of not just one but a couple of Sani Sabik organizations who are devoted to our Faith and yet publicly support House Sarum can seem more then tenuous.


There are heretics in every dark corner of the great Houses, it just so happens we Sarumites are not known for being particularly quiet - heretic or not.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Yuwei Sung
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2017-03-10 04:51:06 UTC
Oh dear, the conversation has moved on a bit. I probably shouldn't make posts right before sleeping.

Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
That's a fair question and one that's difficult to answer in a satisfactory manner. New Eden is full of examples of things built on lies and dishonesty that still to some degree or other works...


Thanks for your interesting answer, Miz. (It is Miz, right?) It was pretty well put considering the width of the question, as you pointed out.

I think it would also take too long to express the nuances of my own viewpoint, but in general terms, I agree with you. It's a common sight to see people making relativist arguments about societies; As in, if it works, all aspects of it are justified. But there are different degrees of working. My personal way of thinking of societies (roughly speaking) are as kind of machines designed to churn out mentally healthy, skilled, self-reliant individuals, and my perception is that ones which organize themselves around false pretense tend to do worse at this, either because they dedicate too much political and cultural energy to keeping people believing and suppressing dissent, or because the sort of people who run them tend to be

Well. I'm just rephrasing your own points, aren't I? Never mind.

My only real disagreement would be to say that you might be a little naive about how valuable exposing a lie would be in discrediting it once it's gained momentum. Though, I think you know that already.

To explain myself a little bit, I asked this because your original statement seemed to be a lot more of a visceral reaction, more than the reasoned argument you've offered here. I was wondering what it really spoke about you as a person, but I think the answer you gave instead was more satisfying.

Anyway.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
This is a lasting point of (even pretty bitter) contention between Miz and myself.

Societies built on honesty: I don't think there are such places. ... and, I say that as someone who believes in seeking the truths of this world, and accepting them for what they are...


Thanks for the background, Ms. Jenneth.

I think it's interesting that you don't draw a distinction between societies that are founded on a lie, and those that are adorned by them, and that you put something like the Federal concept of "rights" on the same plane as the Amarrian religion. To me, while much of the flair of the Gallentean conception of liberty are high-minded but ultimately fabricated narratives, they is all rooted in a reality, a motive, that is fundamental to all humans and, though as a less grand scale, just as true as thermodynamics: "Suffering hurts. I don't want to suffer. I don't want my loved ones to suffer."

As you well point out, the grain of truth in the core of the Sani Sabik story is quite obvious, if a bit less constructive. But what about the Amarrian story, I wonder?
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2017-03-10 05:26:31 UTC
The Empire is the largest, oldest, and most stable of the great nations.

It's people, theologians and leaders have spent millennia seeking the truth. There is no place in the Empire where you can escape thoughts of who we are and our place in the universe, it is close to you from the time you are a child. I have seen some educational practices in some cultures in New Eden that also emphasize this. But none to the same extent Archuran's maybe. Vherik. But the Empire has trillions of people all tuned into this search for the truth in god.

How can you think that in a single lifetime a person alone could master such a mystery? Building upon what others have built is a key to pushing understanding and innovating can lead to new breakthroughs. But it seems as if some of you have simply touched the water and declared what lies at the ocean's deepest points. Like a new worker on a construction project who proclaims the best way to do things, not knowing such things have been tried before. It is a point of view often had held by young adults, new to independence.

It is often more comforting to think that you know the way the world works. But I think that if you look out into New Eden and see a foundation of only lies then you are missing the rising of the sun for the shadows it casts.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Jade Blackwind
#54 - 2017-03-10 09:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Blackwind
Aria Jenneth wrote:
I don't dislike the Sani Sabik because they're wrong. I dislike them because (1) they're awful and (2) they're limited, and boring as dust. They've found a shiny, jagged shard of reality, and instead of expanding outward and looking for more, they've made a fetish of it and basically spend their time playing power games and congratulating themselves on how insightful they are.

Sure, they've got something real. They don't seem to get that it's not the only thing that is.

There's more to this world than power. They've found a beginning, and refused to just accept it, leave it, and move on. For thousands of years.

It's ... pitiable.


No.

Power is a byproduct of true freedom.

A goal for many, yes, but to be able to gain power over others, one must first gain power over themselves. To be free. That is the real beginning.

The difference between the Amarrian and the Sabik God is that one enslaves and the other frees. It's as simple as that.

And once one is truly free from anything but devotion to the unfathomable, one as well might gain power over others who are still slaves to their zombie society and their false god, because why not.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#55 - 2017-03-10 10:41:12 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
But it seems as if some of you have simply touched the water and declared what lies at the ocean's deepest points.


When every shoreline around an ocean is filled with wreckage, trash, dead or dying human refuse and suffering, I do not need to drown in it to say that ocean is polluted and poisonous. I was born and raised there. I have spent my entire life studying it, even more than among my clan. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend the massive tumorous cancers beneath the surface doesn't exist, if you wish. Fortunately, sometimes there are honest ones among you that at least acknowledge the symptoms they produce. The ones like the countless unending slave raids beyond your borders. The soil that breeds Sani Sabik and Bleeders just as easily as followers of the Rite. The... sod it, this'd take all day to make any kind of comprehensive list and it has been made a thousand times before.

The problem is, even that's not quite enough. The cancer isn't going to go away just because you try to treat some of the symptoms.

Yuwei Sung wrote:
your original statement seemed to be a lot more of a visceral reaction, more than the reasoned argument you've offered here


A consequence of having waded neck deep through these sewers of discourse and propaganda for too long. These arguments have been had countless times, by countless people and this leads to a few things. If you argue these things for long enough, your stance and views on them - if you are a reasonable person with a modicum of honesty - will keep evolving, gaining nuances and complexity, grow longer or shorter as it amasses points of worth and sheds those that do not. The longer this goes on, the closer you get to something that may be considered objective and honest truth, that takes entire books worth of discourse to fully explore, while at the same time your patience for retreading the same old ground starts running thin.

Yet, the arguments still happen and the issues are still important enough that resigned silence would be nigh an atrocity, so you muster the patience you have to spare in the moment and rattle off a few quick sentences of response or snark that could serve as maybe a headline or just a little arrow-sign pointing towards the actual - far larger and far more complicated and far more nuanced - argument you have built up over years and years.

You know why? Because we're not changing each other's minds on this. Not often enough that it counts as anything more than the exceptions that prove the rule. Ayallah up there for instance? I'm not sure she's even capable of it. It's not really her I'm talking to, though. Or Aria. Or Graelyn. Or Verin. Whoever. Maybe the words might reach them, maybe they won't, but their intended target is someone else entirely.

The endless amount of baseliners across New Eden that devour every word we publicly throw at each other. Especially those of us who've been capsuleers long enough to have made a name for ourselves. If even just one of them stops, thinks for a moment and then comes to their own conclusions - for or against - then the effort I put out was worth it.

Even if it was just a quick sneering 'visceral reaction', because by now? By now they largely serve as reminders of the many long pages where we've already had the same arguments, a thousand times.

Worth the time spent to rattle off a 'visceral reaction' as long as once in a while you're willing to sit down and put out the more complete and full argument, wouldn't you say?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2017-03-10 14:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Yuwei Sung wrote:
Thanks for the background, Ms. Jenneth.

I think it's interesting that you don't draw a distinction between societies that are founded on a lie, and those that are adorned by them, and that you put something like the Federal concept of "rights" on the same plane as the Amarrian religion. To me, while much of the flair of the Gallentean conception of liberty are high-minded but ultimately fabricated narratives, they is all rooted in a reality, a motive, that is fundamental to all humans and, though as a less grand scale, just as true as thermodynamics: "Suffering hurts. I don't want to suffer. I don't want my loved ones to suffer."

As you well point out, the grain of truth in the core of the Sani Sabik story is quite obvious, if a bit less constructive. But what about the Amarrian story, I wonder?


Well-- only that contains the same core motive, I think.

"Suffering hurts. I don't want to suffer. I don't want my loved ones to suffer."

That's the core motive behind any civilization worthy of the name, and it's why the Sani Sabik fail at being one. If the "rights" the Federation orients around attempt to limit suffering by trying to prevent abuse of those rights, the Empire approaches it a little more directly: it's oriented around social longevity and stability.

Ultimately, Sani Sabik (boring as it is) is a natural response to the Empire, because the Empire at its core is a highly elaborate arrangement for the careful distribution of power. Sani Sabik reacts to this by screaming that it will not be controlled-- that it will, per Ms. Blackwind, be "Free," to do what it pleases, to harm whom it pleases, how it pleases, when it pleases, as long as the power and will to do so exists.

To be Amarr (or part of any civilization, but especially the Amarr) is to have your power curtailed for the more general good. To be Sabik is to refuse that curtailment. The latter is a maybe inevitable response, but the former is far the more sophisticated structure-- and it's stood, uninterrupted, for four thousand years.

Four. Thousand. Years.

About the only other people who can claim that kind of record are the Jove, and they're sadly a bit hard to study up close.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#57 - 2017-03-10 14:21:06 UTC
Careful, Aria.

You know what happened the last time you waxed eloquent about the Sani Sabik.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2017-03-10 14:28:01 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Careful, Aria.

You know what happened the last time you waxed eloquent about the Sani Sabik.


?

Uh ... you might have to refresh my memory, Dr. Valate. I maybe don't talk about them this directly in public very often, but I haven't really been avoiding the topic.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#59 - 2017-03-10 14:45:05 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#60 - 2017-03-10 14:52:06 UTC
Anyone remember when the 'Sani Sabik' weren't all represented by lunatics and clowns? I can't believe I'm saying this, but I miss the actual Sani Sabik like Silas and Revan. At least they inspired genuine thought, opposing or otherwise, rather than more cringe than your average reality holo series.