Intergalactic Summit

This ... makes me really sad.

It sounds like you did learn something worthwhile out of it, though.

Yes the more I think about this I can see why Jamyl is venerated.

As a Champion to both the Faithful and Heretic alike. Especially when there is... er... was a close association between the Sani Sabik and the Sarum Family.

As I have followed the thread, even the rumor of whether she was cloned or not has become moot. The fact she returned from the dead becomes the discussion.

The fact she is the only Amarr Leader to do so is something of a miracle that is coming back to life in a time of the Empire's need. It suggests that Emperors and Empresses alike did not live up to the standards of what the Divine wanted. Of course we know that such individuals once in power tend to write about their own relationship with "God".

Again Resurrection is not a new concept for the Sani Sabik. After all science has enabled us to be immortal once we become a capsuleer.

It is no longer beyond reason that Jamyl can return. She will return. It is a matter of when.

And then the real question will be answered. Divine Empress or Sank Sabik Queen. After all it's magic anything can happen.

Well-- there's also a pretty practical, non-theological reason for the Godflesh doctrine, though, Ms. Vess:

If the first Emperor of Amarr could still be around, and still Emperor, and still holding views four thousand years old, would that be even a little bit desirable?

New ideas, personalities, and perspectives are a little important. Entrenched gerontocracy is kind of a problem, and it's one Amarrian longevity already makes a bit of an issue.

I believe she's talking about this link in the original post.

Silly Blood Raiders and their crazy religious shenanigans.

Ok, I'm missing close association there tho. Unless that's the one - "Sani Sabik Faith is anti Ignorance. Sarum House is Anti Ignorance.", is that it ?

How about simple honesty?

Build something on a lie and it's worthless.

That's a fair question and one that's difficult to answer in a satisfactory manner. New Eden is full of examples of things built on lies and dishonesty that still to some degree or other works, which should then justify the lies and dishonesty, yeah? No. Short sighted and far too reliant on sweeping some very uncomfortable truths under the carpet.

This is a subject that warrants a small book worth of answer, so the following is vastly oversimplified and should just be considered a basic notion requiring a lot of elaboration before it holds 'true', but it's a starting point: When you build on a dishonest foundation, a lie or fully withheld truth and know this to be the case, you can certainly build something that works, but you open yourself up to some very nasty problems. If you are ethically and morally fine with being fundamentally dishonest and lying, are you truly someone that can possibly be trusted in a position of authority? More problematically, lies and dishonesty can always be uncovered. There's no certain way to hide it short of utterly annihilating it and everyone who knows about it, which would make it unsuitable as a foundation for anything to begin with. It then follows that if you still use a foundation of such, it can eventually be revealed for the flawed and dishonest foundation it is, risking the integrity of everything you've built upon it.

However, this isn't something someone can tell you to believe in or should expect to just be taken at face value. Go out there and look instead. Study the societies and structures built on dishonesty and lies, and the ones that may actually have been built on something honest even if less "noble". I think I am willing to put money on you finding a whole lot of needless human suffering and misery perpetrated by that which is built on dishonesty that isn't there in a society valuing honesty.

This is a lasting point of (even pretty bitter) contention between Miz and myself.

Societies built on honesty: I don't think there are such places. ... and, I say that as someone who believes in seeking the truths of this world, and accepting them for what they are.

Take Miz's own sometime blessing, "Spirits at your back," implying belief in or at least reference to spirits, which are probably real in the same way as the Amarrian god, and useful in the same way. Just, somewhat less heavily built upon. It's quite possible Miz actually believes in her people's traditional spirituality, but, if so, in all probability, she's just as much subject to a falsehood as the Amarr. What's more, if she doesn't believe in them, it's the blessing that's a lie....

This kind of pattern repeats at every turn. The Caldari Winds are a lot like the spirits Miz references. The Gallente believe in "rights," which are basically a kind of secular god, laying down a rule whose real basis is that it's something they wish very strongly were actually woven into the world.

The "truth" is that the only true law is the one that can't be broken. That is, natural laws. The Totality, that is, the universe, isn't good or bad; it just is.

Nothing that can be done is truly forbidden.

The society doesn't exist that's honest about that. Even my own sect tells its lay practitioners comforting stories about spirits and gods, knowing that the truths our monks are trained in are ... hard on people.

But our actions have consequences. We can suffer because of them. We can fill this world with suffering very easily, if we are not careful how we behave and what we tell others about how to behave and why. Not everybody (by a very long shot) is prepared to understand the deepest reasons for, for example, not stealing from or murdering each other.

So we tell stories. There's not a single society that doesn't do this. Even the Sani Sabik, with their single jagged shard of brutal insight, deceive themselves and each other constantly.

This is a world of illusion. The question is not, "Should we base our societies on honesty?" but, "What sort of stories should we tell, and why?"

I already had
"There is a God, and They told me these are the things They want you to do..",
"Stiff competition and the hand of the market will achieve the most fair distribution of power and wealth possible",
"Clearly averaging out the opinion of this rabble will be the best foundation for their governance",
and
"We come for our people, and surely this excuses a few things."

For ourselves, I'd imagined "My right to swing my arm extends as far as I can drive my fist into your nose," but ..

..is a strong contender. Thank you.